Unconditional Election

[Van]

I see the premise that one can lose their salvation has been raised in this unconditional election denied thread.

Those that believe we cannot lose our salvation know about all the verses used to claim that mistaken view. They all fall into two categories, either loss of rewards, which which can happen by being sidetracked or backsliden, is in view or the idea that if God has protected your faith, i.e. you are actually born again, then you will stick with it to the end. Thus if you stick with it, that is evidence that you have indeed been saved. Romans 11:20 falls in this category.

There are no actual verses that say or suggest a person can lose or forfeit their positional sanctification in Christ, none, zip, nada.

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace but I am not a Calvinist. He is dead. The Sovereign Grace is eternal!

I think the historical name game is rediculous. Perhaps we should start identifying their position with Jacob Arminius. The fact is, that only scripture can settle the difference rather than the historical name game or philosophical arguments.

 

[Van]

Non-Calvinist Answers

I have a question for our Calvinist brothers in Christ;

Does the following passage describe regeneration?

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." (Hebrews 10:14-17)

Second question;

Did this New Covenant begin with the death, burial, ressurrection and glorification of Jesus Christ?

Third question;

Did the spoken of faith of the OT saint's come from a result of their regeneration?

TULIP lives or dies on this subject of regeneration. There is one Gospel for both pre-cross and post cross, and that is ONE's Faith in the I AM as revealed throughtout time. Regeneration is a blessing given through the New Covenant and it was not available prior to the glorification of Jesus Christ. The writer of Hebrews spends quite a bit of time explaining the differences between the Old and the New because the New began with the death, burial, ressurrection and glorification of Jesus Christ.

Here is a more modern translation of Hebrews 10:14-17.

14 For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy. 15 And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us, for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will establish with them after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws on their hearts and I will inscribe them on their minds,” 17 then he says, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no longer.”

The question was asked does this passage refer to regeneration, and the answer is yes. In this passage God is offering a conditional covenant, that if accepted as determined by God who knows our innermost thoughts and beliefs, God will fulfill that covenant of love and regenerate the believer. It says for those God sets apart in Christ, because of the blood of Jesus they will be "perfected" or made faultless, i.e. without blemish, righteous. Those regenerated will not only be given an eternal righteousness, they will be given a good conscience, and aided with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we are able stick with the Law of Christ.

As an argument for Conditional Election, it is a very persuasive argument. Why would God promise to make a covenant with us during our lifetime, if we are unable in our regenerate state to seek a covenant with God? The sequence is backwards, scripture says God makes a covenant which results in regeneration and Calvinism says God regenerates those who He will then make a covenant with.

Question #2, when was the New Covenant inaugurated? When Jesus died on the cross. The new covenant can only be made with the blood of Jesus.

Question #3, did the OT saints come to faith because they were first regenerated. Answer No! Scripture teaches we are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5, so no one was made alive, quickened, regenerated before the New Covenant was inaugurated. That is why Hebrews 11:39-40 teaches they had to wait in Abraham's bosom, until Christ died, and then be made perfect, i.e. receive the regeneration and forgiveness in Christ Jesus.

Bottom line scripture teaches faith before regeneration, and therefore before the New Covenant was inaugurated, those who gained approval through faith (Hebrews 11:1-2) had to wait until the New Covenant was inaugurated to be made perfect, and alive together with Christ.

Calvinism presents a slippery theology where folks undergo a mysterious never mentioned regeneration before they come to faith, then a second actual regeneration when they arise in Christ a new creation. The fact is everyone not spiritually in Christ is spiritually dead. To be separated from God is to be spiritually dead, but to be united with God (Christ) is to be made alive. Calvinism blurs this problem, and seeks to obscure it, using various terms, i.e. regeneration and quickening, for a very different spiritual action, a fictional gift of faith via irresistible grace before a person comes to faith. Yet another example of Calvinism seeking to wedge their man-made theology into the text. That dog will not hunt.

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is a more modern translation of Hebrews 10:14-17.



The question was asked does this passage refer to regeneration, and the answer is yes.

You are mistaken. Hebrews 10:14-17 and Hebrews 8 both refer to the covenant spelled out in Ezekiel 36:26-27 and Jeremiah 31:34. This is the same covenant described in Hebrews 13:20 where it speaks of "the blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" which is an unconditional coveant as the only covenant parties are the Three Persons of the Godhead.

As an argument for Conditional Election, it is a very persuasive argument.

It is no arguement at all as the covenant is not a conditional covenant at all.

Question #2, when was the New Covenant inaugurated? When Jesus died on the cross. The new covenant can only be made with the blood of Jesus.

Wrong! It was officially inaugerated at the cross by the shed blood of Christ but its was administered on the basis of PROMISE since the foundation of the world (Rom. 3:24-26; 4:14-22). That is why it is called the "blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" and that is why the Promise was given Abraham "in Christ" (Gal. 3:17).

Question #3, did the OT saints come to faith because they were first regenerated. Answer No!

Again, you are wrong! Do you really believe the human nature and human problem and its solution changed at the cross?? There is no fellowship between God and man apart from SPIRITUAL UNION between God and man and spiritual union is regeneration or being made alive to God spiritually. In the Old Testament this is mentioned as a circumcision of the heart. Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born of the Spirit BEFORE the cross and BEFORE the cross he asked how that a Bible teacher could be so ignorant of the necessity of the new birth.

Scripture teaches we are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5, so no one was made alive, quickened, regenerated before the New Covenant was inaugurated. That is why Hebrews 11:39-40 teaches they had to wait in Abraham's bosom, until Christ died, and then be made perfect, i.e. receive the regeneration and forgiveness in Christ Jesus.

Another mistake. The Jews spoke of heaven as "Abraham's bosom" because they identified their heavenly hope with being children of Abraham. The writer of hebrews plainly states that Abraham had a heavenly hope (heb. 11).

Calvinism presents a slippery theology where folks undergo a mysterious never mentioned regeneration before they come to faith, then a second actual regeneration when they arise in Christ a new creation.

Who in the world are you reading? We do not believe such a thing. I believe regeneration and conversion are as inseparable as repentance and faith and thus it is regenerative faith in Christ that justifies.

The fact is everyone not spiritually in Christ is spiritually dead. To be separated from God is to be spiritually dead, but to be united with God (Christ) is to be made alive. Calvinism blurs this problem, and seeks to obscure it, using various terms, i.e. regeneration and quickening, for two different spiritual actions, a fictional gift of faith via irresistible grace before a person comes to faith.

You certainly are most ill informed. Indeed, "this problem" invalidates your whole theory that regeneration did not exist before the cross as God has no spiritually dead saints prior to the cross but all were regenerated by the Spirit and in spiritual union with God which union IS life.

 

[The Biblicist]

The fact is everyone not spiritually in Christ is spiritually dead. To be separated from God is to be spiritually dead, but to be united with God (Christ) is to be made alive.

So you believe God justifies spiritual dead persons? God justified Abraham by faith and do you really believe Abraham was a spiritually dead man when justified by God? - Rom. 4:3-21.

Tell me, Abraham lived by faith and walked by faith and that is the essence of progressive sanctification and yet you believe he was spiritually dead and could walk by faith? Is not faith the fruit of the Spirit? Tell me, can you express a spiritual life as vivid and complete as David did in the Psalms? Yet, you are going to tell me he was spiritually dead to God? Unregenerated without spiritual union with God?

Nicodemus was ignorant of the necessity of regeneration BEFORE the cross and Christ rebuked him for that ignorance:

Jn. 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

According to your soteriology Christ was just flapping his lips and wasting his time by telling Nicodemus that a man must be born again, because according to your soteriology he could not even know about it until after the cross and neither could it possibly occur.

 

[steaver]

Nicodemus was ignorant of the necessity of regeneration BEFORE the cross and Christ rebuked him for that ignorance:

Jn. 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

According to your soteriology Christ was just flapping his lips and wasting his time by telling Nicodemus that a man must be born again, because according to your soteriology he could not even know about it until after the cross and neither could it possibly occur.

Actually, Jesus scolded Nicodemus for being a master of Israel and not knowing of the new birth to come in the Messiah.

After Jesus' glorification, the implementation of the regenerating Spirit begins....

"And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" (Jo 20)

Here we have believers receiving the Holy Ghost rebirth.

And before you declare this is a commission of power and authority, which it is not, that would be later at pentacost, consider Jo 7.....

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[Van]

Hi Biblicist, there is no point in discussing this topic with you. You are long on assertions, i.e. you[Van] are wrong, but short on offering anything of merit.

1) The Everlasting Covenant and the New Covenant are two separate covenants. False

2) The New Covenant is not a conditional covenant. False

3) The New Covenant was "administered" before Christ died. False

4) The human ability to seek God and trust in God changed at the cross. False

5) People entered heaven, also called Paradise, before Christ died. False

6) People are regenerated before God spiritually places them in Christ. False

7) Van is ill-informed. Never meet a Calvinist who did not claim to be better informed than those that differ. The systemic us of logical fallacies proves Calvinism is without actual support.

8) God justifies spiritually dead people. False

9) Abraham was made righteous, justified before Christ died. False

10) OT saints were indwelt, rather than just having the Spirit upon them. False

11) Jesus was just flapping His lips. False

Pointless to address all these fictions. Calvinists use the avalanche approach and buries the truth in falsehoods.

Lets just pick one false hood, Abraham was made righteous, justified, before Christ died on the cross and exam it. Romans 4:3-21 was referenced, yet the passage says Abraham's faith was reckoned or credited as righteousness. Thus Abraham obtained approval through faith. When Abraham died he was set apart in Abraham's bosom.

 

[OldRegular]

Perhaps this question should be posed in a new thread but if Election is anything other than Unconditional doesn't that lead to a works based Salvation!

 

[steaver]

Perhaps this question should be posed in a new thread but if Election is anything other than Unconditional doesn't that lead to a works based Salvation!

The condition is faith alone. No, faith is not a work.

 

[OldRegular]

The condition is faith alone. No, faith is not a work.

So God elects after one believes?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Under Calvin's model of Election, the believer had no choice in his or her matter of receiving the Holy Spirit regeneration.<snip>

And yet the majority of Calvinists will insist that the elect must be in an environment where he hears the gospel being preached in order for the Holy Spirit to work out His work of regeneration.

Is there any Calvinist here who will stand up and say that he believes the Spirit can and does work His regeneration on the elect apart from any means such as the preaching of the gospel, or the witnessing of a believer ? and that the Holy Spirit is able to locate His child in the deepest of jungles and the most un-evangelized tribe and regenerate that sinner without him ever hearing of Jesus' Name ?
The quote often referred to is" Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God".
I've read some works on Hudson Taylor and some accounts seem to indicate that there were instances when Chinese who have never seen a Bible anticipated the arrival of one who will show them the way to the true God.
Impossible ?
Fairy tale ?

 

[steaver]

So God elects after one believes?

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" 1Pt

"In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" Eph 1

You still haven't explained what this passage is speaking of since you said it is not about salvation....


"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

 

[The Biblicist]

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" 1Pt

The argument here is over the meaning of "foreknowledge" whether it means prescience or knowledge based on determinate purpose. Romans 8:28-29 answers that question as Paul spells it out so none can misunderstand its meaning. God works all things "according to His purpose" (v. 28) and thus those he "foreknew" based upon purpose (v. 29).

"In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" Eph 1

The Greek text has all these as Aorist Tense and there is no term in the Greek text for "after". Simeltaneous action is the truth in this text and it should be read as follows "In whom ye also trusted WHEN ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also WHEN ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise."

You still haven't explained what this passage is speaking of since you said it is not about salvation....


"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Unconditional election logically presupposes the fall of man and its just consequences while election is God's mercy extended to some in spite of the fact they are no more deserving than those whom God simply allows to continue in their free hatred and resistance of Him (Acts 7:51). Therefore it is not God's rejection of them but their rejection of God (Psa. 14:2-3) due to the fall. God's goodness is extended (Rom. 2:4-5) to them even in the preaching of the gospel and yet they freely and always reject his goodness as do the elect. The difference is that God out of pure grace chooses to save the elect while choosing to allow the rest to continue to follow the dictates of their own free will.

 

[The Biblicist]

Hi Biblicist, there is no point in discussing this topic with you. You are long on assertions, i.e. you[Van] are wrong, but short on offering anything of merit.

That is the point exactly, your position is nothing but unwarranted assertions.

1) The Everlasting Covenant and the New Covenant are two separate covenants. False

They are ONE and the same covenant as there has never been but one covenant of redemption. The law covenant was "ADDED" not for salvation but to reveal the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:19) and never had the power to provide life (Gal. 3:21).

There never has been but ONE Savior for all mankind under heaven (Acts 4:12) both before the cross (Jn. 14:6; Acts 10:43) and after the cross. There never has been but one gospel of salvation (Gal. 1:8-9) both before the cross (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23) and after the cross. There has never been more than one covenant of redemption and it was received and applied before the cross by faith in its promise (Rom. 3:25; 4:16; Gal. 3:6-8; 17) as we look back to the cross by faith in its fulfillment.

2) The New Covenant is not a conditional covenant. False

Point out any such conditions in Ezek. 36:26-27? Point out any such conditions in Jeremiah 31:34? Point out any such conditions in Hebrews 8:10-12 or Hebrews 10:10-17? Let's see who is really making unfounded assertions!

3) The New Covenant was "administered" before Christ died. False

Read Romans 3:25! Read Romans 4:1-21. Read Galatians 3:6-17. Read Hebrews 11.

The New Covenant was administered based upon "promise" that God would send the redeemer (Rom. 4:16; Acts 10:43). However, The public ratification by blood did not occur until the cross.

What you fail to grasp is the covenant of redemption is inclusive of ALL things necessary for applied redemption - regeneration, indwelling, sealing, JUSTIFICATION, adoption, progressive sanctification and glorification. You can't pick and choose as they are all inseparable in the covenant package of redemption.

Hebrews 11 prove they all LIVED BY FAITH - progressive sanctification
Rom. 4 prove they all were JUSTIFIED by faith
Jn 3 prove they were all born of the Spirit and this was called circumcision of the heart in the Old Testament.
Psalms 89 prove they were sealed as David claims security of the believer -

4) The human ability to seek God and trust in God changed at the cross. False

The human ability to seek God is the SAME after and before the cross as the very same scriptures are used by New Testament writers to describe that ability - Psalm 14:2-3 with Romans 3:10-12

5) People entered heaven, also called Paradise, before Christ died. False

David claimed he would fly away at death not go downward. David claimed that the Lord would never leave him on earth or "afterward" in glory and defined "glory" as heaven (Psa. 73:22-25). David knew of only two alternativess - heaven or hell - Psalm 139. Solomon claimed that at death the spirit of man went upward and returned to God.

Jesus denied that Abraham, Isaac or Jacob were still in their tombs (Mt. 22:32

6) People are regenerated before God spiritually places them in Christ. False

Read Ephesians 2:10. They must be "created IN Christ" in time.

8) God justifies spiritually dead people. False

God does NOT justify spiritually dead people as to be spiritually dead is to be "in tresspasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1) whereas justification is the remission of all sin (Rom. 3:7-8) and both David (Rom. 4:6-8) and Abraham as well as all Old Testament beleivers had their sins remitted (Acts 10:43).

9) Abraham was made righteous, justified before Christ died. False

Read Romans 4:3, 11, 21-24.

10) OT saints were indwelt, rather than just having the Spirit upon them. False

Read Romans 8:8-9

Your whole post is nothing but unsubstantiated assertions while I not merely assert but provide scriptures to support those assertions. Scriptures YOU DO NOT ADDRESS and cannot address.

 

[Chowmah]

Under Calvin's model of Election, the believer had no choice in his or her matter of receiving the Holy Spirit regeneration. God caused the person to believe without any action at all taken by the individual.

For those here who do not agree with Calvin's Unconditional Election, what do you see in the scripture which causes you to reject Calvin's teaching on this subject? Or, what is your best argument against the Calvinist who declares Unconditional Election is a matter of scriptural fact?

What scripture must Calvin be disregarding or misinterpreting that is causing him to embrace his model of UE?

I am asking this because I am currently in a debate about this with a fellow brother in Christ from our local church and I would like to brush up on some of the arguments against this doctrine.

The bible as a whole. Why bother with the book if everything is already predetermined. But...thank God we are not a bunch of preprogrammed robots.

 

[TCassidy]

You might be an Arminian if…

If you have no use for Luther but are absolutely giddy for Joyce Meyer…you might be an Arminian.

If you despise Calvin for his invention of TULIP...you might be an Arminian.

If all you know of St. Augustine you learned from Google Map…you might be an Arminian.

If you think Calvinists are intolerant religionists but Jews are God’s chosen people…you might be an Arminian.

If you’ve never read a single Puritan but devoured “Left Behind” and “Purpose Driven Life” like bread of heaven...you might be an Arminian.

If you can’t pronounce “Sproul” but know Joel Osteen’s wife’s first name…you might be an Arminian.

If you fight to the death for man’s free-will but never give God’s fee-will a second thought…you might be an Arminian.

If you think Beth Moore is “the bomb” but hear Jonathan Edwards is a tad dry…you might be an Arminian.

If you plead with God to save your loved ones but know in the end it’s simply not His decision to make… you might be an Arminian.

If you are really happy that you chose God when you could’ve chosen otherwise—and plus God was so helpful through it all…you might be an Arminian.

 

[The Biblicist]

The bible as a whole. Why bother with the book if everything is already predetermined. But...thank God we are not a bunch of preprogrammed robots.

God's sovereignty and human responsibility are not opposed to each other. Prophecy is proof of God's predetermination and working all things according to his purpose. Fallen man is preprogrammed by his own nature which has no freedom from sin but is in bondage to sin.

 

[OldRegular]

You might be an Arminian if…

If you have no use for Luther but are absolutely giddy for Joyce Meyer…you might be an Arminian.

If you despise Calvin for his invention of TULIP...you might be an Arminian.

If all you know of St. Augustine you learned from Google Map…you might be an Arminian.

If you think Calvinists are intolerant religionists but Jews are God’s chosen people…you might be an Arminian.

If you’ve never read a single Puritan but devoured “Left Behind” and “Purpose Driven Life” like bread of heaven...you might be an Arminian.

If you can’t pronounce “Sproul” but know Joel Osteen’s wife’s first name…you might be an Arminian.

If you fight to the death for man’s free-will but never give God’s fee-will a second thought…you might be an Arminian.

If you think Beth Moore is “the bomb” but hear Jonathan Edwards is a tad dry…you might be an Arminian.

If you plead with God to save your loved ones but know in the end it’s simply not His decision to make… you might be an Arminian.

If you are really happy that you chose God when you could’ve chosen otherwise—and plus God was so helpful through it all…you might be an Arminian.

Very well said!

One thing that mystifies me is that even the most ardent opponents of the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace, including Unconditional Election, have no problem believing that Israel is the Elect of God and still are.

 

[OldRegular]

God's sovereignty and human responsibility are not opposed to each other. Prophecy is proof of God's predetermination and working all things according to his purpose. Fallen man is preprogrammed by his own nature which has no freedom from sin but is in bondage to sin.

That is one thing that those who trumpet the "freewill" of man studiously avoid: Unredeemed mankind is in bondage to sin and will be until God frees them!

 

[steaver]

That is one thing that those who trumpet the "freewill" of man studiously avoid: Unredeemed mankind is in bondage to sin and will be until God frees them!

And who placed them in that bondage? God, when he proclaimed them all cursed because of one man's sin.