Note every topic under the sun has been dragged into this thread, but the topic is Unconditional Election, a mainstay of Calvinism, and this doctrine has been shown to be mistaken. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, hence the biblical view is conditional election. This say point is also taught in James 2:5 where God chooses those who are poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. Several other verses also teach Conditional Individual Election during our lifetime for salvation, such as 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, Romans 11:5 and 1 Peter 2:9-10.
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Unconditional Election
- Thread starter steaver
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OldRegular
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Wonderful that we still live in a free country isn't it!
OldRegular
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Amen brother! Amen!
Note every topic under the sun has been dragged into this thread, but the topic is Unconditional Election, a mainstay of Calvinism, and this doctrine has been shown to be mistaken. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, hence the biblical view is conditional election. This same point is also taught in James 2:5 where God chooses those who are poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. Several other verses also teach Conditional Individual Election during our lifetime for salvation, such as 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, Romans 11:5 and 1 Peter 2:9-10.
Can anyone show anything to a person with their eyes wide shut?
1) 2 Thessalanians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith in the truth, therefore we had faith in Christ before we were chosen.
2) Being chosen through faith in the truth is a conditional election for salvation.
3) Those chosen are "rich in faith" according to James 2:5. Thus yet another verse that says our election for salvation was conditioned on God accepting our faith.
4) 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, therefore our election to become one of God's chosen people occurred after we had lived without mercy. This puts our individual election for salvation during our lifetime, not before the foundation of the world.
5) In Romans 11:5 we see God chose as His remnant those who had not bended their knee to Baal, thus we too are chosen on the basis of God accepting our faith.
6) In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 men are chosen who are not well born, powerful, or well educated again demonstrating His choice according to a purpose, rather than unconditional.
7) God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble, again showing conditional elections for His purpose.
Can anyone show anything to a person with their eyes wide shut?
1) 2 Thessalanians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith in the truth, therefore we had faith in Christ before we were chosen.
2) Being chosen through faith in the truth is a conditional election for salvation.
3) Those chosen are "rich in faith" according to James 2:5. Thus yet another verse that says our election for salvation was conditioned on God accepting our faith.
4) 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, therefore our election to become one of God's chosen people occurred after we had lived without mercy. This puts our individual election for salvation during our lifetime, not before the foundation of the world.
5) In Romans 11:5 we see God chose as His remnant those who had not bended their knee to Baal, thus we too are chosen on the basis of God accepting our faith.
6) In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 men are chosen who are not well born, powerful, or well educated again demonstrating His choice according to a purpose, rather than unconditional.
7) God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble, again showing conditional elections for His purpose.
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Problem is that Apsotle peter stated that God foreordained that Jesus be die on the Cross, predestined, and that God used the the willful acts of wicked men to help accomplish that act, and also that Bible states all that were pre apoointe dto receive eternal life heard the Gospel message and got saved!
Election based upon the Sovereign Will of God, individual call and election unto salvation in Christ!
Here we have the typical change the subject to another mistaken scripture, always running away from conditional election. That is the problem, not one Calvinist can support unconditional election given scripture clearly teaches God chose those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Not the other way around.
There is no conflict with God predestining the manner of Christ's death with conditional election for salvation. Thus a bunny trail thrown into the thread to derail discussion of the topic.
And we have been all through Acts 13:48 many times, and yet you do not even attempt to address the fact the word translated appointed means an agreement by mutual consent, thus those that took Paul's direction to eternal life believed.
There is no actual problem other than Calvinism is a mistaken doctrine that cannot stand up to study, hence all the efforts to change the subject, disparage opponents and flee from the truth.
Thanks
Yes, if you are committed to doctrines cast in concrete, you are not free to agree with anything else, no matter how clearly scripture teaches an alternate truth.
The "T" must be accepted, even though unregenerate men were able to be "entering heaven" without being compelled by irresistible grace.
The "U" must be accepted, even though God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth.
The "L" must be accepted, even though Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.
And the "I" must be accepted even though men who were entering heaven were blocked by false teachings.
Every verse cited to support Calvinism has been shown to be ambiguous at best, and to directly conflict with the doctrine when read contextually.
Yes, if you are committed to doctrines cast in concrete, you are not free to agree with anything else, no matter how clearly scripture teaches an alternate truth.
The "T" must be accepted, even though unregenerate men were able to be "entering heaven" without being compelled by irresistible grace.
The "U" must be accepted, even though God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth.
The "L" must be accepted, even though Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.
And the "I" must be accepted even though men who were entering heaven were blocked by false teachings.
Every verse cited to support Calvinism has been shown to be ambiguous at best, and to directly conflict with the doctrine when read contextually.
The false assertions just keep coming from Calvinism. There are none who are righteous is consistent with my view, therefore an attempt to muddy the waters. Then we get this falsehood, "none who are seeking God on their own accord." I was claimed both Paul and Isaiah taught this fiction. So two fictions. Was any verse cited? Nope.
Scripture does teach Psalm 14 and Romans 3 that none seek God, but neither verse addresses whether this refers to at any time, the Calvinist addition, or when they are sinning, the contextual idea.
Next we get yet another falsehood, that we are saved by our own efforts, i.e. if we will to be saved, that will result in our salvation. Total utter and complete fiction. So yet another attempt to muddy the waters. God alone saves us, for we are saved by grace through faith. We are chosen through faith in the truth. So salvation does not depend on us choosing to trust in Christ, but in God crediting our worthless faith as righteousness.
Next the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement is misrepresented, saying it refers to the limited application of Christ's sacrifice. Pure fiction. Calvinism teaches Christ died not for the whole world but for the elect only, which is shown to be false by 1 John 2:2. So rather than admit that Calvinism is unbiblical, the doctrine is misrepresented. Go figure.
No bogus rebuttal was even offered to defend the "I" in light of Matthew 23:13, so the point was evaded by saying the verse does not mean what it says, therefore my interpretation is mistaken. Men were entering heaven, therefore they were seeking God, yet they were blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine. It is inescapable, they had the limited spiritual ability to seek God and trust in Christ, yet had not come to faith sufficient for God to credit it as righteousness, when their faith was made shipwreck by falsehoods.
Next yet another bogus and baseless claim is made that Calvinism is somehow consistent with scripture, after it has been shown over and over it is completely inconsistent with scripture.
God hardened hearts after the fall so He was taking away some spiritual ability possessed by natural men after the fall. Therefore, yet again the Calvinism assertion of no spiritual ability is clearly false and no one with an objective mind defends the bogus doctrines of Calvinism.
Scripture does teach Psalm 14 and Romans 3 that none seek God, but neither verse addresses whether this refers to at any time, the Calvinist addition, or when they are sinning, the contextual idea.
Next we get yet another falsehood, that we are saved by our own efforts, i.e. if we will to be saved, that will result in our salvation. Total utter and complete fiction. So yet another attempt to muddy the waters. God alone saves us, for we are saved by grace through faith. We are chosen through faith in the truth. So salvation does not depend on us choosing to trust in Christ, but in God crediting our worthless faith as righteousness.
Next the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement is misrepresented, saying it refers to the limited application of Christ's sacrifice. Pure fiction. Calvinism teaches Christ died not for the whole world but for the elect only, which is shown to be false by 1 John 2:2. So rather than admit that Calvinism is unbiblical, the doctrine is misrepresented. Go figure.
No bogus rebuttal was even offered to defend the "I" in light of Matthew 23:13, so the point was evaded by saying the verse does not mean what it says, therefore my interpretation is mistaken. Men were entering heaven, therefore they were seeking God, yet they were blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine. It is inescapable, they had the limited spiritual ability to seek God and trust in Christ, yet had not come to faith sufficient for God to credit it as righteousness, when their faith was made shipwreck by falsehoods.
Next yet another bogus and baseless claim is made that Calvinism is somehow consistent with scripture, after it has been shown over and over it is completely inconsistent with scripture.
God hardened hearts after the fall so He was taking away some spiritual ability possessed by natural men after the fall. Therefore, yet again the Calvinism assertion of no spiritual ability is clearly false and no one with an objective mind defends the bogus doctrines of Calvinism.
Unconditional Election is bogus, because God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. He chooses those who are rich in faith. He keeps His covenant of love. We are saved by grace through faith. Thus salvation is conditioned upon God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness. The Bible is crystal.
Actually, is the Foreknowledge of God regarding who the elect are due to Him seeing that we will make the decision to receive Christ, or due to him being active in making sure the elect will come to faith in christ?
Why change the subject? Why claim you were saved by your good works. You were not. Jesus said whoever believes in Him shall not perish. Why does God tell us to believe in Jesus?
Why not address scripture? You were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. You can deny scripture, but all that makes you is wrong.
One topic change after another, the Calvinist shucks and jives, and runs from the truth. They were all chosen through faith in the truth. To be saved by grace through faith means we had faith before we were saved by grace. Faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand. Verse after verse teaches conditional election, and what do the Calvinists offer? A change of subject again and again and again and again and again.
A misconception by many is that faith is a work. Faith is not a work. Abraham was saved by faith. He believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness sake. Yet in the same passage it clearly says
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Faith is not a work. That is what is taught here. Abraham was saved by his faith, not by his works. If you are not saved by faith then you are not saved. Salvation is all of God; no one here denies that. It is the free gift of God accepted by faith.
So you are saying that a person who has been born-again can freely choose to NOT do righteous. Would that not negate the reason for the new heart?
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