Unconditional Eternal Security of Once Saved, Always Saved

[Brother Wayne]

Yep - when the context is understood, each Scripture is very clear. When Jesus saves, you are saved forever. Your life will reflect that and you will never be lost. To GOD be the glory, not me.

Are you going to explain Hebrews 10:25-29, 2 Peter 3:20-22, and some of those other passages to me?

 

[Darrell C]

I simply don't have the time to reply to all of your posts and I realize that it is useless to argue my point if your hearts are not open to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. I'm not a good persuasive writer either, but I would encourage all of you to read the Bible and study the words in the verses concerning this subject and come to your own conclusion.

Hello Brother Wayne, nice to meet you. This issue has been debated since before man became accustomed to giving great weight to what Church Fathers have taught, giving place to them rather than the testimony of the word of God. So it is up to us, my friend, not to follow in that tradition but to rely upon the promise of Christ to His disciples that we will be taught of God Himself. Why I mention this is due to the fact that there is one aspect of scripture which you do not consider, which is evident by the context you place upon certain passages, and that is...there were no "Christians" according to the New Covenant Standard before the death, burial, and resurrection. The New Covenant, ratified by the blood of Christ and established upon the Day of Pentecost, promised by God in the Old Testament, brought in a better hope than that which even the very disciples of Christ had. This is evidenced by the radical change we see in the disciples after Pentecost, as opposed to their actions when Christ was taken and betrayed.

One question I will ask you, and answer honestly with some thought: how many of the disciples "abided in Christ" (per John 15) when Christ went to the Cross?

I will leave you with that question and will return with an address of the proof-texts provided.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Here is a collection of verses that don't support once saved, always saved.

This implies that there are verses that do and those that don't. There is no double standard in scripture, but a consistency that one has to bring into balance. If we believe that salvation is a temporary position, then we have the burden of explaining the many passages that clearly teach that salvation is eternal and that God does not forsake His children.

But just so you know, this is a favorite topic of mine, and I also want you to know from the beginning that I understand how one can hold to a position that salvation can be lost, so I hope you understand that my responses are sincerely in hopes that you might consider what is said, and no enmity is, or will be, on my part. I will not question either your intelligence or your salvation...only the doctrine you teach.

Which is, for me, a necessity. We will examine the proof texts given (both yours and mine...lol) with, I hope, the expectation of a divine Moderator (lol).

Matthew 12:36-37 “But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned”.
Does the life we live presently affect our destiny?

As I said before, there were no New Covenant Christians during the ministry of Christ, for the simple fact that the New Testament was still a Promise of God at that point, not yet established.

Christ was made under the Law, and was a Preacher of the Law. His ministry, we are told, was specific to Israel, whereas His ministry concerning establishing the New Covenant was for all men.

When we read John 13-17 we see this truth: much of what is taught to the disciples concerns future events, such as the death of Christ and the coming of the Comforter. This includes..."abiding in Christ."

Matthew 12:50 “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
What about those who don't do the will of God?

The first question to answer is...what will is man commanded to obey in this age?

Is it the Law?

Or is it belief in Christ?

One of the main objections to OSAS is that it provides license to sin, but I can assure you, that is not the belief of serious bible students who hold to OSAS. What most of us do believe and recognize is that while we are in this body which is unredeemed, we will still have to deal with sin and temptation, which is why there are many exhortations in scripture to put away sin.

It is not coincidence that Matthew 12 has a strong focus upon belief in Christ...specificly. Here we see the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, attributing the work of Christ to a/the Devil. Does Christ fail to fulfill the Law by not honoring His mother? No, but the focus is on belief in His Person and His work.

Again, in this audience...there is not a single Christian. At best there are disciples of Christ who at this point have not been born again.

Matthew 15:1-6 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

Few give consideration to the fact that within a few hours there would not be one disciple that could not be charged with not abiding.

Falling away.

Adamantly denying the Lord Jesus Christ.

In an effort to prove that those born again can somehow be returned to the natural state, meaning, they are deprived of the indwelling of God and return to spiritual deadness, having the Life of Christ removed, that they overlook something so clear in the account.

Efforts to prove the New Birth before Pentecost point to this verse:


John 20:22

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


...yet the future realization of this is overlooked:


John 7:39

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Here we see that it would be reasonable to consider the disciples being born again and receiving the Holy Spirit, as one condition would be the Lord's glorification. However, again looking toward the future realization of the teaching of Christ after the Last Supper, we are told the Spirit was coming, and can see in Acts 1 that the disciples themselves also seem to yet await this coming:



Acts 1:4-8

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Some may view this to speak of the filling of the Spirit, but it cannopt be missed that the Comforter has not yet been given, for He has not yet come.


Consider:

John 16

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


There seems to be little doubt, lest we should question the very word of the Lord, that not until the Lord departs do we see the fulfillment of the coming of the Holy Spirit. Promised by the Lord here, as well as here:



Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


This is just one promise of the Father, spoken of in Acts 1:4.

In short, one mistake made when trying to ascribe John 15 as a passage that contradicts scripture elsewhere in which the eternality, the finality, the completeness of salvation in Christ is that one does not rightly divide the Old from the New Covenants, nor the expectation of fulfillment of prophecy and promise with the fulfillment itself.

Can we abide somewhere where we have not been?

No. This is why there is warning given to make sure our calling and election. Even the disciples, not being born again, were powerless to abide, Peter being the supreme example in denying that he even knew the Lord.

Merging and blurring the Old and the New is spoken of by Christ Himself, explaining that if one tries to put new wine in an old skin...it will burst.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Continuation

This is referring to a Christian that has been graphed into the vine who, later gave up and fell away.

Two different metaphors: in Romans 11 it is Gentiles as a whole, not individuial Christians...that are grafted into the provision of God. The remnant (those that have not been cut out) remain because of belief and true faith.

What is significant about what Christ says here is that He is that source of provision. Here He equates Himself with God, because He is God. Which is another fact the disciples have not fully grasped, and will not until they are born again.

To see disciples that did fall away, we go here:


John 6

King James Version (KJV)

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


But what we cannot let escape us is that 1) they are not Christians, though they be "followers of Christ; 2) they do not truly believe, as expressed by the Lord Himself:



25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


Remember I asked what the will of God was, that men should obey? Here it is:


28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Over and over we will see this very thing, and in the proof-texts used to promote loss of salvation, this will be there. We know, my friend, that a man may believe without being saved. Demons believe, yet are not saved. Here, these are disciples, no question, but they follow for temporal provision, rather than eternal, as seen in v. 27. And here we see again the Lord teaching of that which was to come, namely His death for man's sin, which would be the final sacrifice for sin, having the ability in completeness...to forgive sin forever.

Hell fire is the destiny of this Christian who has not continued to abide in the vine.

No Christian will be cast into Hell, that is just a biblical truth. While we are created in Christ unto good works, rather than by them, or because of them, we still have a judgment of the works done in the body to come:



1 Corinthians 3:11-15

King James Version (KJV)

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


If we jump to the final judgment...



Revelation 20:11-15

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


...we see that those that stand before God in this judgment are...dead.

If we go back to John 6, we read:


John 6

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


Life is given by and through Christ. ALL of those in the wilderness are said to be dead, this would include Moses, Aaron, and Joshua. But Christ's coming provided for LIFE which before was not available to men. THis is the New Birth wherein we are made sons of God by the will of God. In v. 47 it cannot be argued what is said: those that believe in Christ have everlasting life. Before the Cross and Pentecost it was "on credit," so to speak, and not realized as of yet, but Abraham's election was as sure as yours or mine, though he awaited God to fulfill His promise, as did all Old Testament Saints, as Hebrews 11 makes perfectly (no pun intended) clear.


52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


This remains true: if you are not in Christ...you have no life. If you are in Christ...you have eternal life.

John, in his Gospel, says:


John 20:31

King James Version (KJV)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


The Gospel of John is intended to bring one to belief, that one might receive eternal life.

When writing to the Church, he says:


1 John 5:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


...he is writing to those that already believe, and he assures them that they have eternal life, even as our Lord taught.

Continued...

 

[annsni]

Salvation is not lost by committing acts of sin but by willfully rejecting the Savior that the person once willfully accepted.

Then we can stand before God when the time comes and tell Him that we are saved because we were obedient to the end. That the bottom line of our salvation is based on us and we earned our way into eternal life.

 

[annsni]

Are you going to explain Hebrews 10:25-29, 2 Peter 3:20-22, and some of those other passages to me?

Hebrews 10 - Let's see a few verses

verse 10 tells us "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

verses 14-18 says "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin."

We see in verses 25-29 that there were those who were a part of the body of faith - but yet were not actually saved. These were ones who were just like the ones in our churches who do it all, seem to be saved, but yet walk away for whatever reason and show their true colors. They "trample underfoot the Son of God" because He means nothing to them and never did. Look at verse 39 and you will see that there are two kinds of people - those who press on and those who shrink back. Those who shrink were never saved.

As for the 2 Peter passage, it doesn't exist and I tried to figure out what you might be referencing but I couldn't.

 

[Darrell C]

Continuation...

Matthew 25:30 “And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth”.
To get the full context read the whole parable starting in verse 14. From looking at the context around this parable we conlude that Jesus is speaking about five Christians; four of them were faithful to the end, but one wasn't.

My amillenial brethren here will take issue with me here, but might I suggest to you that the "Kingdom" in view here is...the Millennial Kingdom?

If is not, then here we have justification for works-based salvation.

We need not do that, though, for the Lord Himself tells us what judgment this parable speaks of. Consider:


Matthew 25

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


While I can understand why some see it reasonable to view this as entrance into the Eternal State, the New Heaven and Earth, there is far too much prophecy as well as explicit teaching concerning the Millennial Kingdom for me to take a view that denies it.

If we look at ch.24, we see the prophecy concerning the Tribulation where we see His return accompanied by Angels:

Matthew 24

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


If you believe that the Thosand Years of Revelation 20 is actually a thousand years, we see a time-frame from the end of the Tribulation until the Eternal State. If you go through the parables, many hard sayings are made easily understandable due to separating the Ages in a proper context: we keep the Old Testament Saints within the Age of Law; we keep New Testament Saints withing the Church Age; we keep the Tribulation Saints within the Tribulation; we keep the Saints of all ages in the Eternal State.

To illustrate this, remember we have talked about the difference between the disciples before Pentecost (and before the New Birth provided by God) and after. Consider:



Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)


1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:


Remember that the Holy Ghost could not come except Christ depart.


3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:


Remember that Israel was promised a Kingdom, one that was temporal. It was not until New Testament revelation that an understanding of Christ's ministry was given to man. Previously he did not understand that Christ would die for the sins of all men. Not one person can be seen to understand this before Pentecost. The closest we come is John the Baptist, who proclaimed, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world."

Did he understand? If he did, perhaps someone could explain to me why while in prison, he sent his own disciples to inquire if Jesus was the (promised) Messiah or if they awaited another.

Peter proclaimed Him the Christ, the Son of the Living God...only to immediately deny the ministry of Christ on the Cross, which gained him a severe rebuke, and to literally deny Him before men when Christ went to the Cross. Indeed...the sheep were scattered.

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.


A reference to John 16 (which ye have heard of Me). Among the promise of God concerning the New Testament was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.


5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Now, if they are already born again, how is it that they yet await being baptized with the Holy Ghost? While some make this a subsequent baptism, the obvious truth is that...they had not yet been baptized with the Holy Ghost.

John also proclaimed that Christ would baptize with spirit (the Holy Spirit) and with fire (judgment). When the Lord spoke of the coming of the Comforter, He also said:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


We see the same word used for Comforter here:



1 John 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

In this we see that Christ is God, and that He is One with the Holy Spirit.



6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


Again I ask...what Kingdom is referred to here?

The same Kingdom these unbelieving disciples awaited and sought to establish:



John 6:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.


Remember these men sought after bread which still left their fathers dead. There was a temporal expectation...because God promised this. They were not in error concerning this, but where they did err was that their "belief" was not in Christ, but...understanding of the ministry of Christ was not yet revealed to men.

Even among the Twelve Disciples of Christ.

Continued...

 

[Van]

Looking at it carefully

Here is a list of quotes made by some of the first apologists in the fist to centuries after Christ. I found most of these quotes from the Dictonary of Early Christian Beliefs that contains many quotes derived from the writtings of these men.

“We aught indeed to walk so holily and with so entire substantiality of our faith, as to be confident and secure in regard to our own conscience desiring that it may remain in us to the end. Yet we should not presume, for he who presumes, feels less apprehension, he who feels less apprehension takes less precaution, he who takes less precaution runs more risk. Fear is the foundation of salvation. Presumption is an impediment to fear. More useful then is it to apprehend that we may possibly fall, than to presume that we cannot, for apprehension will lead us to fear, fear to caution, and caution to salvation. On the other hand, if we presume, there will be neither fear nor caution to save us.” Tertullian

“Certain ones of those heretics who hold different opinions misuse these passages, they essentially destroy freewill by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation, by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” Origen

“I hold further that those of you who have confessed and known this man as Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation and have denied that this man is Christ and have not repented before death, you will by no means be saved.” Justin Martyr

“Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good deeds... and why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say? All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man. For it is in mans' power to disobey God and forfeit what is good.” Irenaeus

"Let us then practice righteousness so that we may be saved unto the end." Second Clement

“Since all things are seen and heard by God, let us fear him and forsake those wicked works that proceed from evil desires. By doing that thought his mercy we may be protected from the judgments to come for where can any of us flee from his mighty hand.” Clement of Rome

“God hath foreseen that faith, even after Baptist would be endangered. He saw that most persons would be lost again by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their lamps.” Tertullian

OK, we do not consider these quotes to be inspired by God, but they can surely be used to remove all doubt from our minds on what the apostles believed concerning this issue. These men were writing the things that had been passed on to them from the apostles. Many of the men whose quotes I pasted above had first or secondhand teaching from the apostles. If the apostles believed in unconditional eternal security, why didn’t his close followers?

Hi Wayne, I had only responded to about half of your opening presentation, but I see we are now on page 5.

Anyway, here is my take on the above post.

1) The first quote by Tertullian is equivocal, i.e. can be understood to be consistent with once saved always saved. What it says is we should not assume we are saved but should fear we are not saved, i.e. that we have that good conscience to the end. As John wrote, they go out from us because they were not of us. Note rather than assume we are saved forever, Paul tells us that at each communion we should examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. We cannot assume we are saved because we put out trust in Christ, we must consider if God credited our faith as righteousness and put us spiritually in Christ.

2) Yes, you are correct, the Origen quote clearly teaches he thought actually saved folks could lose their salvation, and not just the rewards earned by effective ministry.

3) Martyr's quote is consistent with professing faith, thinking that saved you, and then falling away, like the second soil of Matthew 13:1-23.

4) Irenaeus's quote again is fully consistent with eternal security, where we can lose the rewards but still get to heaven as one escaping from a fire.

5) Second Clemente's quote again is consistent with your loss of salvation viewpoint. I, of course, think he misunderstood those saved until the end scriptures, not as providing salvation but in my view of proving salvation.

6) Clemente of Rome's quote again is equivocal, this could refer to repentance, forsaking the ungodly, and striving to walk in paths of righteousness, i.e. exhibiting the faithful faith God credits as righteousness as a basis for salvation.

7) Tertullian's second quote presents an interesting truth. The Old covenant was works based on people would soil their garments over and over even if they believed. So the new Covenant in the blood of Jesus is superior, for once we are spiritually placed in Christ, our soil garments are constantly washed in the blood, thus in Christ we are made perfect, flawless.

As far as what these quotes tell us, it is clear that mistaken views, one side or the other, existed very early in church history. Tertullian died about 225AD, Origen died about 253AD, Martyr died about 165AD, Irenaeus died about 202AD, Clement of Alexandria died about 215AD and Clement of Rome died about 101AD and may be the same man mentioned in scripture.

 

[Darrell C]

Luke 9:62 “And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
Self-explanatory indeed. Let us not be as Lot's wife, who should have escaped destruction but looked back.

I agree, as long as it is not taught that born again believers turn back. Not one passage in scripture will support this.

Luke 14:34-35 “Salt is good: but if the salt has lost its savor, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is it is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Can we as Christians lose our savor if we don't have any? No. Because the salt has lost its savor it is cast out ...where? Heaven, hardly!

Consequences for born again believers range from sickness to death:



1 Corinthians 11:29-32

King James Version (KJV)

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


Christ said...



John 3:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


Again I would direct your attention to the fact that Christ prophesies His own death here, being yet future, and that belief in His death is tied to belief that Christ...died in our place. Men can believe the historicity of Christ, but until convicted of sin, righteousness, and judgment, there is a chasm between that belief and belief that Christ died for us, and because of that we can fully place our faith in Him.

And it is without doubting..."whosoever believeth will not perish, but have eternal life."


16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Christ came to give life to those dead in trespasses and sins. The life we possess is not a future hope, though we await glorification, but it is a realized fact. There are two groups in the world, those that are alive in Christ...and the dead. The spiritual...and the natural. The New Birth provides life through the work of God wrought in us.



17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Salvation is through Christ alone.


18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The natural man already stands in the place of condemnation, for the wages of sin which all men are born into...is death. Apart from Christ the natural man has no life, as testified by Christ Himself.

The rejection of Christ is to reject the only means of salvation afforded men. Before the Cross, God justified according to faith, though the revelation of knowledge was not specific to faith in Christ. Now...



Acts 17:30

King James Version (KJV)

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent


...there is specific knowledge to which man must receive, namely, specific faith in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

The vagueries both before and after the Law will not be an excuse, for God has said in His word:



Hebrews 1:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


The final word is The Word.


Continued...

 

[Brother Wayne]

As for the 2 Peter passage, it doesn't exist and I tried to figure out what you might be referencing but I couldn't.

Sorry, that reference was supposed to be 2 Peter 2:20-22

 

[Brother Wayne]

As far as what these quotes tell us, it is clear that mistaken views, one side or the other, existed very early in church history. Tertullian died about 225AD, Origen died about 253AD, Martyr died about 165AD, Irenaeus died about 202AD, Clement of Alexandria died about 215AD and Clement of Rome died about 101AD and may be the same man mentioned in scripture.

They do, however, show us what the apostles really meant in the scriptures, because most of these men had close teachings from the Apostle John in particular.

 

[Van]

Evaluating the pillars of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6
Paul had his confidence that God would continue his justifying and sanctifying work in them all the way to the end. Yet what was Paul's confidence in? Was it that he believed they were eternally secure and he wanted them to know it? This is what the eternal security proponents want us to believe.

Paul was confident of their perseverance only because they had "fellowship in the gospel from... THE FIRST DAY UNTIL NOW." Paul tells what his confidence is based on, and that is what we should believe. If there was a group of believers who showed nothing but good fruit from the day of their conversion until now, then there would be no other choice but to have confidence in the grace of God for them.
Please take note that the Scriptures never state this kind of confidence for those who are lukewarm or "sinning saints." This promise is only for genuine, obedient believers! Paul himself thought that was "meet" or "just" for him to think this way about them (verse 7). They had given Paul absolutely no reason to doubt that they were genuine Christians!

As I read the passage, I think Paul was confident that God had began a good work and would perfect it until the day Christ returns. Paul's statement is that "if" God began a good work in you, "then" He will perfect it until the return of Christ. Thus fully consist with once actually saved its settled. It is also fully consistent with folks professing but not walking the walk, of facing Matthew chapter 7.

 

[Van]

They do, however, show us what the apostles really meant in the scriptures, because most of these men had close teachings from the Apostle John in particular.

The two that believed in loss of salvation had no close association with the apostles, having come of age more than 75 years after John's death.

 

[Darrell C]

Continuation...

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

There is nothinig here that supports loss of salvation, but perseverence only.

Remaining in the faith is proof that one is in the faith. The exhortation of the writer of Hebrews in several places is to make your calling and election sure.

While we know that a believer can fall into sin and come under judgment for that sin, yet not one passage teaches that they lose their salvation. When we are born again, we are not as we were when born, we are new creations. That creation is as new as Adam was when he was created.

Romans 8:13 “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

It simply says if we live after the flesh we will die; there is no indication given that it is contingent upon whether we were born-again at some point or not.

It is a biblical truth for both believers and non-believers alike that death is the wage earned for sin.

However, there are some advantages for the born again believer: 1) they are now no longer under the condemnation they were when they were natural men; 2) they have been given a new heart, a new spirit, have been cleansed through the word of God, and have been given the Holy Spirit that they might walk in His will; 3) they have the promise of God that He will never leave nor forsake them.

Our works will of a truth be judged, but our sin has already been paid in the Person of Christ. If His sacrifice was not, as John said, for the sins of the whole world, then what would be necessary would be...that He die again for sins committed after salvation.

I Corinthians 3:17 “If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”
Remember, this first book to the Corinthians is addressed to the church at Corinth and 'all who are sanctified in Christ Jesus.' This couldn't apply to unbelievers, as their bodies do not contain the precious Holy Spirit in their temple.

Let me ask you this: when your Pastor preaches, does he assume that all in the congregation...are saved?

Paul did not. The writer of Hebrews did not.

Christ...did not.

The Church is truly sacntified in Christ, however, not all that go to Church, are the Church. This truth is seen in many places in scripture. The difference between believing unto salvation (Hebrews 10:39) and general belief is vast.



1 Corinthians 7:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.


Are these unbelievers saved?


Consider also this:



1 Corinthians 5

King James Version (KJV)

5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


The implications within this short passage are far-reaching. We can conclude this man is saved, and sinning, or, we can conclude that he is not. If he is, we have a born-again believer sinning and Church discipline expected to bring repentance. If he is not (and this is the view I take), then we have a non-believer (as also seen in ch.7) within the Church.

Now the address to the Corinthians is, like Hebrews, for believers primarily. BUt, just as I am sure neither you nor Pastor assume everyone in your fellowship is saved, neither does Paul.

We also know that faith comes by the hearing of the word of God, and every unbeliever must first hear the Gospel before being saved. Many people are in fact saved in the Church under the preaching of a Pastor, who, because most assume their are unbelievers among the congregation, preach to unbelievers.

So we cannot take a warning and construe it as meaning something when it contradicts wht the writer (and ultimately the Holy Ghost) says in another place: and Paul makes it clear in ch.3 that salvation is not lost, but reward.

Continued...

 

[Van]

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29
The individual's salvation is not the intent of the context here. It is the love of God for the nation of Israel. If one wishes to argue that "salvation is a gift, and therefore cannot be taken back by God" one would be inclined to agree with that. God does not take salvation away from us. We throw it away! It is our act of unbelief that brings separation and forces us to be broken off from the life of God. Look! In the preceding verses God tells us that many in Israel were "broken off" because of unbelief! We are also warned that we too can also be broken off unless we continue to "stand by faith." (Romans 11:20-21).

Here we have another interesting statement of truth, it is our unbelief that brings separation. The unstated idea here is that our belief unites us with Christ. Not how scripture reads. God puts us in Christ, i.e. sets us apart in Christ, through faith in the truth, i.e. if He credits our faith as righteousness. So salvation according to scripture is all of God, and it does not depend on the will of man. Thus our faith, as wretch as it may be, provides our access to the grace we stand in.

Now lets look at Romans 11:20-22. Were the Jews that we broken off under the Old Covenant or Under the New Covenant? I say Old Covenant. We were grafted in because God credited our faith as righteousness, if indeed God grafted us in. So we should not be conceited, but fear, for if God did not spare the Jews, neither will He spare Gentiles. Therefore if God did not graft us in, we are certainly headed for destruction too. If we continue in God's kindness, which we will if God grafted us in, for we are protected by the power of God.

 

[Van]

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37
Who are given to Christ? Those who come by faith. What is promised is nothing more than that anyone who casts his faith upon the Christ will not be turned away! Believers do not have to fear that the availability of salvation is limited in any way.

1) Who are those given? Those whose faith has been credited as righteousness.

2) What is promised? Those given to Christ, i.e. those God puts in Christ, will not be cast out.

3) Do believers have to fear once they are in they could be cast out? Nope, Christ will raise them up at the last day. Once in Christ we are predestined to be raised up in glorified bodies.

 

[Van]

And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day. John 6:39
Many confuse God's will with God's decree. It is also God's will that none should perish, and that all would come to repentance (2Peter 3:9). It is the Father's will (desire) that Jesus should not "lose" any, but this is an ideal, and not a proof of the inability of falling away. For in John 17:12 Jesus said, "those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition," direct proof that in spite of the desire of God that "none shall be lost," there was at least one of the chosen twelve that was! The will of God never violates the free will he has given us to exercise!

1) I addressed John 6:39 in the prior post.

2) We do not just have one verse or two verses but many verses that say salvation, i.e. getting to heaven, cannot be lost, but rewards can be lost. Was Judas given to Christ in the same way as those of John 6:37. Was Judas ever "in Christ." Nope. You are mixing physical men being given to Christ in the flesh, with God spiritually putting those chosen through faith in the truth in Christ. In other words, I believe you are confusing John 17:2 with John 17:6, with 17:2 referring to folks given for eternal life, and John 17:6 referring to folks, the 12 Apostles, given to Christ to receive Christ's word and then give that word in the world. Different purpose for the eleven, and Judas was given for yet a third purpose, to fulfill the betrayer prophecy in scripture.

 

[Darrell C]

Continuation...

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”

Warning against a shallow association and belief in Christ.

Philippians 3:13-14 “Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”

Paul didn't consider himself to have achieved yet, but he pressed toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God. This doesn't sound like unconditional eternal security.

No, it is hope in glorification, which Paul had not yet achieved, though he yearned for it.

It is not salvation in view, this is clear, as Paul was convinced of His salvation and that God Himself would preserve him:



Philippians 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,

4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,

5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Col. 1:23 “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

We see an example of not continuing here:



Galatians 1

King James Version (KJV)

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


He goes on to ask the Galatians:



Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


In view, as I am sure you know, is that they had been led away from doctrinal purity by Judaizers, to which Paul does not question their salvation for their doctrinal error so much as to pose the question..."How exactly were you saved?"

Was it due to your own works? Or was it the preaching of the Gospel? He asks if they are foolish enough to think that salvation begun by the Spirit of God was now made complete through their works.

I am constantly amazed at how a legalistic faith can read this book and remain convinced that they contribute to salvation. Salvation is accomplished by Christ, not man. Progressive sanctification involves our diligence concerning putting away sin in our lives, but sanctification in Christ is a one-time event in the life of the believer:


Hebrews 10:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1 Timothy 6:12 “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.”

And if we keep this in context, which is a true confession and warning against the dangers of temporal riches which can be seen in this prior statement:


1 Timothy 6:17-19

9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


...and rather than posting the verse alone we again keep it in a way where the context is not lost:



1 Timothy 6:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.


...then we see that the exhortation to Timothy is to teach those that have wealth not to trust in it nor get carried away with it and from faith which they profess.

In this way they will lay hold on eternal life, rather than falsely being convinced of salvation.

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:"

Denying Him is equivalent to not being saved.

Christ will confess those that confess Him.



2 Timothy 2:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.


The chapter deals with perseverence in persecution and remaining true to sound doctrine. True faith is always seen in sound doctrine and continuance in the faith.

Continued...

 

[Van]

In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

The only way that this can be perceived as a proof for eternal security is to have the support of some verse where the doctrine has already been proven. Standing alone as it does, it renders nothing that teachers of carnal security can use. The verse does not say whether believers can break this seal or not, but the whole of Scripture proves that they can. Observe that the Holy Spirit is only a down payment on our inheritance and that we do not possess the fullness of this gift until the Lord returns. The fullness of this promise is only to those who endure to the end. The Scriptures tell us to "Be faithful until death and I will give you a crown of life." (Rev. 3:5,21). The Lord preserves the faithful (Psalms 31:23), not the unfaithful. This is the true perseverance of the Saints!

1) God puts us in Christ according to scripture, i.e. 1 Corinthians 1:26-30. After we are in Christ, then we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, as a pledge to the inheritance of eternal life. We are predestined to adoption, and adoption refers to our bodily resurrection.

2) The gift of the Holy Spirit is said to be forever.

3) Under the old Covenant folks could lose salvation, thus Psalms 31:23 and all other passages teaching old covenant theology carry no weight as far as picturing the security of the New Covenant.

Bottom line we are sealed for redemption and predestined for adoption with the Spirit of Adoption. Romans 8:23

 

[Darrell C]

Continuation...

Hebrews 2:1 “Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.”

Hebrews 3:6 “But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”

Hebrews 3:12-13 “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin”[/COLOR]
Here we see that not only must we take heed, but that sin, can adversely affect our faith. It is also worthy of note that the phrase "departing from the living God" is used. Just as I Timothy 4 stated, it is possible to depart from Him. He said he would never leave or forsake us, but we are creatures of free will and must make the decision whom we will serve.

Hebrews 10:25-29 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Because of the need for length in looking at these passages, I would prefer to treat them separately, and will do so when I finish this particular post.

For those that believe Hebrews teaches loss of salvation, I can assure you, there is a blessing for them if they will but study this book, rather than a few verses they believe support their position. I do not say this to be diminutive, but because I have studied this book for years I believe I can at the least...give those that use these passages something to think about. Which, if they are sincere students of the word, they will admit that their interpretation not only contradicts scripture's teaching concerning eternal salvation, but contradict the very chapters these verses are taken from.

How much clearer could it get?

Much clearer, actually, lol.

Let me ask one question of you concerning Hebrews 10:26: is there a sacrifice offered for the sins of believers committed after they are saved?

Christians sin less, but are not sinless. And we know that there has to be sacrifice for sin, as established in the entirety of scripture. Sacrifice began in the Garden, when God clothed Adam and Eve with skins of animals. It might surprise some to consider that Abel sacrificed of his flock. Cain did not, and was reproached by God for his failure to comply with what was apparently the prescribed offering.

Noah sacrificed. As did Job, as did Abram. Even before specific regulation under the Law.

So I ask, why is it that animal sacrifice is no longer accepted for remission of sin?

Because there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin.

But hopefully, we will get to that.

Hebrews 10:38-39 “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them which draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

I am surprised every time this is given to support loss of salvation: the writer makes it clear that we (those that have not committed the sin just spoken of) have believed to the saving of the soul.

Meaing the belief expressed was belief unto salvation.

2 Peter 1:10-11 “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”

Note carefully the exhortation is..."Make sure you are really saved!"

lol

And also, if you do make your calling and election sure..."you shall never fall."

If our calling and election is sure, and we can never fall, how is it that some teach that we can?

2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned again to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire”.

Love this passage.

The quotes are Old Testament reiteration that false teachers are...false teachers. They are still what they were in the beginning, dogs and pigs a picture of, not Chidren of God, but of the wicked.

Notice that they "know the way of righteousness" yet are not walking in it. These are not saved.


Consider:



2 Peter 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Shall we say those that teach damnable heresies and deny the Lord...are born-again believers? Did those they are compared to, the false prophets, belong to God?

Let us look at the description of these:


12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;


17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

This last refers to Hell, the lake of fire, and there is a reservation for these false teachers.

Jude parallels this chapter and also refers to those clearly iddentified as not saved. This passage is a great study, but I would just suggest that it be viewed again in it's context of reference to false teachers.

Continued...