Under Grace or Under Law?...Round 3

[steaver]

Im not sure who said that but in my opinion we cannot possibly know that they never knew God. David murdered and committed adultery. Its just that he repented of his sin. Had he died "during the act" that wouldnt mean we could determine that the man never knew God and was of his father the devil.

Claudia

Claudia, you are warming my heart :love2: It appears you are beginning to see some "light" :tongue3: I many times forget that all things are possible with God! :thumbsup:

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

Brother Bob,

I respect you because you dont seem to just say God allows just anybody in heaven.

But I have a question for you.

Think about this.. Many people WANT to stop sinning but just dont know HOW to stop. We can only do this through faith and by the power of God.

What about the person who WANTS to stop sinning but just doesnt know HOW?

we cannot really make the determination that they are in rebellion against God. Even Paul said with his mind he served the law of God but his carnal nature took over, Paul had to learn the way out... and so does everyone else.


Claudia

 

[Brother Bob]

If you do not know who is saved and who is not, and nobody can know, why do you give answers as though you do know who is saved and who is not?

God Bless!

No, I don't know who is saved but if the are in adultery I know.

Brother Bob, you speak about adultery being a sin that proves one has not been born of God. Jesus clearly told us that even looking at another woman lustfully is adultery. Am I to believe that you have never glanced at another woman anywhere at anytime since your conversion without a lustful thought forming in your head if even for a split second before you caught yourself and said forgive me Lord? Are you married? Was you saved before you were married and if so did you ever have a lustful thought about your future bride to be? Careful of your answer lest you should be found a liar as well as an adulterer.

I spoke on this many time and think it is a paper duck that you always run to when you don't know anything else to say. I say speak for yourself whether you are lusting or not. As for me and my house we serve the Lord.

You can call it the church if you want, but not me.

1Cr 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 

[Claudia_T]

Claudia, you are warming my heart :love2: It appears you are beginning to see some "light" :tongue3: I many times forget that all things are possible with God! :thumbsup:

God Bless!

well thank you but I have felt this way all along, I just didnt have any reason or opportunity to express it, its not as if "I just now saw the light".

But thanks anyway.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Claudia, you are warming my heart :love2: It appears you are beginning to see some "light" :tongue3: I many times forget that all things are possible with God! :thumbsup:

God Bless!

In fact, I know you will not want to hear this but what I just wrote on this board about Jesus not casting you off because of a mistake, I got that from what I remembered in the book Steps to Christ... you just misunderstand the SDA teachings, thats all. It is also where I got the idea that we can really DESIRE to do God's will yet just not know how and still have a very faulty character. This DOES NOT MEAN I dont read my Bible... Im just letting you know these ideas are not some "new light thing" I got from this Board:


Steps to Christ, EGWhite
"There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance.
The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you.
No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ. The less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our Saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image."
-STC, EGWhite

However, reading the things on this Board has really caused me to THINK about what I really do believe and how it relates to all of these issues concerning suicide and all of that. Im starting to actually appreciate that they are doing this, it helps to refine what I believe and really stop to think about it.

Claudia

 

[Brother Bob]

The question is: Was he saved when he was in the act of immorality.
The answer is: Yes he was. Paul was writing to believers. He refers to him as a brother. Christians sin. The reason for the "excommunication" if we can use that word, is to keep the church pure. Let's look at some of the context:

I say the fact that he was committing adultery shows he was not saved.

! Corth.
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

He is called a brother but in reality he is a fornicator and Paul is saying have no part with him. As I said, call them the church all you want but not me.

 

[Brother Bob]

Every time you worry...which you acknowledged is a sin just like adultery...do you go to church, confess that you are now a lost sinner for worrying, repent of that sin of worrying, and then be re-baptised?

Mike

In no way have I equated "worry" with adultery. You misquote me sir.

 

[Brother Bob]

FTR, Jesus did not actually "give" these two commandments, in that sense. They are merely 'quoted', and are in fact found in Lev. 19:18, and Deut. 6:4, which happen to be in the 'civil law' and the 'ceremonial law'. But it does kinda' throw a monkey wrench into the idea the the Ten Commandments is superior to the rest of the Law, hunh??

Ed

Not really, if you keep the two you will have to keep the Ten.

 

[Brother Bob]

The way I got it figured, that's a crooked farmer, a drunken sailor, a thief, a conniving womanizer, a prostitute, a murderer and adulterer, the greatest Romeo that ever lived, the most bigoted preacher in history, the most notorious Christ denying individual in history and a hypocrite, the chief of sinners, and the Mayor of Sodom.

I can relate to these; I have a hard times relating to the religious crowd that were so sure about their "holiness" that Jesus said to them "Depart from me!", and "You're a bunch of whitewashed tombs!" Somehow I don't like that crowd very much, and I think I'm in good company!

I much prefer under grace!

Ed

And you will be one of them only as they, you will be forgiven of those things and accepted Christ and had His blood applied to your soul.

1Jo 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[Brother Bob]

Is this a judgement call that you have a right to call? By what authority do you have the right to make God's decision on someone else's salvation?
In effect you are denying that the blood of Christ was not sufficient to cover the last sins that a Christian commits. It may cover the sins of a new believer, but not that of a believer near the end of his life. That is very inconsistent. To say that Christ's blood is not sufficient enough to cover all of our sins is akin to heresy. He made the payment to atone for all of our sins, not just the first ones that we commit; not just the so-called little ones; not just the ones that one decides are too big for him to forgive. Who has the right to tell God what sins he can or cannot forgive? Is not that the height of arrogance?
__________________
DHK

No, its God's judgement call.:thumbs:

1Jo 2:4



He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[Brother Bob]

Diggin,

Quote:
"His Word clearly states one who knows Him will keep His commandments. "

Then we all are lost...including you. Every christian from the day of pentecost until today has gone to hell.

Reading those passages about "keeping the commandments" the way you and Brother Bob and many others do means that no christian has ever made heaven, or ever will.

The way you get around it is by talking out of both sides of your mouth, wanting to have it both ways.

Able to condemn those terrible others, while inventing loopholes so that you can feel like you will make it.

"But I repent real quick!"

"But I rarely sin, and its small sins!"

"But I go to the altar and weep and get baptised again!"

etc etc etc etc etc.

I pray that God will one day remove the scales off of the eyes of anyone clinging to self rightious legalism and theology designed to condemn rather then proclaim the wonderful truth of the new birth and the security and freedom we are blessed to be a part of.

God bless,

Mike

You make up stuff so fast, you don't know what you say. You have to run to such tatics when you can't use scriptures.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,

I respect you because you dont seem to just say God allows just anybody in heaven.

But I have a question for you.

Think about this.. Many people WANT to stop sinning but just dont know HOW to stop. We can only do this through faith and by the power of God.

What about the person who WANTS to stop sinning but just doesnt know HOW?

we cannot really make the determination that they are in rebellion against God. Even Paul said with his mind he served the law of God but his carnal nature took over, Paul had to learn the way out... and so does everyone else.


Claudia

The Lord is always there to help anyone who wants to quit sinning.

Also Claudia:
Did I understand you to say you believe we must keep the Commandments and then say this knowing that they did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Im not sure who said that but in my opinion we cannot possibly know that they never knew God. David murdered and committed adultery. Its just that he repented of his sin. Had he died "during the act" that wouldnt mean we could determine that the man never knew God and was of his father the devil.

Claudia

Think what you are saying Claudia. His father was the devil while in the act but afterwards, I guess after a shower, then God becomes his Father again. No man can server two masters. You are either a Christian or you are not and to run back under the Law where they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to keep them to justify what people do today, there would of been no reason for Jesus to come if that were true. They all repented and God forgave them. Just think what these fellows have tried to make to be God's church, not that they were these things at one time, but they are claiming they still are these things. Adulterers, liars, killers etc. What a church!!!!
How do you equate that with this?
1Jo 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[Claudia_T]

The Lord is always there to help anyone who wants to quit sinning.

Also Claudia:
Did I understand you to say you believe we must keep the Commandments and then say this knowing that they did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.


Think what you are saying Claudia. His father was the devil while in the act but afterwards, I guess after a shower, then God becomes his Father again. No man can server two masters. You are either a Christian or you are not and to run back under the Law where they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to keep them to justify what people do today, there would of been no reason for Jesus to come if that were true. They all repented and God forgave them. Just think what these fellows have tried to make to be God's church, not that they were these things at one time, but they are claiming they still are these things. Adulterers, liars, killers etc. What a church!!!!
How do you equate that with this?
1Jo 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

well Bob,

David DID say this:
Ps:51:10: Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

and so you could be right about that... I will have to think about it some more.

apparently unlike the rest of you, I havent sat around thinking of all these scenarios and so I am not completely sure about all of this and am willing to change my mind on things if someone shows me Im wrong, out of the Bible.

Claudia

 

[Brother Bob]

Should an action be taken against a person caught in adultery who is a member of the Church?
DHK, D28, Ed, Steaver and anyone else who would care to answer. Should the church take any action against them who commit such acts, fornicators, covetous, idolaters, railers, drunkards, and extortioners. All these people are examples of Christians living in sin.

Should the church take any action against such?

 

[EdSutton]

Should an action be taken against a person caught in adultery who is a member of the Church?
DHK, D28, Ed, Steaver and anyone else who would care to answer. Should the church take any action against them who commit such acts

Of course. That is a part of church discipline, which is, IMO, extremely rare in most churches today. In fact, I Cor. and II Cor. would seem to have just such an example of how this is to be done, as I read Scripture. However, one thing that is in no way implied is that the individual had lost his or her salvation.

BTW, in the various comments you have made regarding adultery, why is it onlyalways the man you seem to mention and decry? Don't "it take two to tango?" Or am I the one off base, here?

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Of course. That is a part of church discipline, which is, IMO, extremely rare in most churches today. In fact, I Cor. and II Cor. would seem to have just such an example of how this is to be done, as I read Scripture. However, one thing that is in no way implied is that the individual had lost his or her salvation.

BTW, in the various comments you have made regarding adultery, why is it onlyalways the man you seem to mention and decry? Don't "it take two to tango?" Or am I the one off base, here?

Ed

I guess its because I am a man. No other reason that I can thing of.

 

[Claudia_T]

Should an action be taken against a person caught in adultery who is a member of the Church?
DHK, D28, Ed, Steaver and anyone else who would care to answer. Should the church take any action against them who commit such acts, fornicators, covetous, idolaters, railers, drunkards, and extortioners. All these people are examples of Christians living in sin.

Should the church take any action against such?

Bob, I think DEFINITELY the Church should take action against those who do that. First of all because it says so in Matthew 18:

15: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

secondly, he or she is setting a bad example for everyone else and if you DONT do anything against them it will encourage others into thinking it is allright to do such a thing.

and by the way I think Ed's thing about men commiting adultery and you not mentioning women is not a right thing to throw in there. I HATE how people do this. Its like they are just trying to pick at things like that to make you look bad... instead of addressing the real issues. People do that same thing to me alot and I just think its awful. So you've got my sympathy on that, for sure.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

hmmmmmmm... boy I gotta say this thing about being in the midst of sin when you die really has me baffled. I can see both sides of it. Never thought about it before.

Because IF David had been right there caught in the act of murder, he definitely at that point WAS being a child of the devil... just like when Jesus told the Pharisees when they claimed to be the children of Abraham that they were children of the devil since they were planning to murder Jesus... He said if you were children of Abraham then you would do the WORKS of Abraham.


Now Im thinking back to this:

Ezekiel 18:
23: Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24: But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25: Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26: When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.


I mean really, think about it, its not like anything is anything different in New Testament times, they were all saved by the grace of God, Abraham was told to sacrifice his son, Issac symbolizing the gospel message of Jesus dying for THEIR sins too.

If in old testament times you didnt have grace then who couldve been saved then? since you couldnt perfectly obey the law anyway...


so its not like the principle of Ezekiel 18 doesnt apply today as well.

Claudia

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks Claudia but I don't worry about Ed at all. He has problems about his own looks rather than worrying about mine. IMO

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Claudia: If in old testament times you didnt have grace then who couldve been saved then? since you couldnt perfectly obey the law anyway...

HP: Who said that no one could obey the law just as God intended for them to? Did not Moses make it exceedingly clear that indeed they could obey the law, and it was reasonable and necessary for them to obey?

De 30:11 ¶ For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 ¶ See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;