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Under Grace or Under Law?
- Thread starter Claudia_T
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: The verse in question here is not speaking of our spirit, our inner man, but rather it is speaking directly of the Spirit of God, for “HE maketh intercession…”
HP: This verse is indeed speaking of the mind of man, in particular one that is yielding itself to the impulses of the sensibilities, the world, or the enemy of our soul as opposed to being willingly influenced to form intents consistent with the Spirit of God.
HP: Romans 8:27 could be seen best in two part. First, God ( His Spirit) searches the hearts of man and knoweth man. WHY? Because the Sprit of God maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. There is no mention in this verse or Rom 8:7 of any separation between the spirit of man and a carnal mind that I can see.
It is not a combination of either, but rather it is an ‘either/or.' Either ones mind is lead by the spirit, or one has a carnal mind.
Brother Bob
New Member
That is not what it is saying HP, it is saying what I posted in blue.
You left out the most important part and that is the mind of the Spirit which I put in bold. It wouldn't be speaking about the mind of God's Spirit.
By "searching the hearts" He knows the "mind of the Spirit" of that man and makes intercession for Him with God.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: First, the flesh is not sin, nor can it sin in and of itself. Sin takes place in the inner man. It is nothing more or less than a willful choice of disobedience against a known commandment of God. Sure our bodies will be changed in the resurrection, but we are not to wait until then to see to the purification of the actions of the body, i.e. the means by which the will has directed its members to carry out its intentions. God says that our flesh (as recognized by our outward actions) is to be directed by the inner man in a way that God would see it in the here and now , 'blamelessly preserved' until He comes for us again.
Bear in mind that it is NOT sin to have a propensity to sin, or an impulse of the sensibilities that if yielded to by the will would indeed be sin. Sin is the willful formation of an intent of selfishness, regardless of the origination of the impulse or influence to sin. There is no such thing as sinful flesh unless you are incorporating the idea of the will of man into any idea of ‘the flesh’ that is being spoke of.
1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Why the capitalization of the word ‘Spirit’ if in fact it is not directly speaking of the Spirit of God?
Brother Bob
New Member
Heavely I should of said the mind of the Spirit was Christ dwelling within you which is still the inward man and Him born again.
Scripture says we have a carnal mind which is sin against God and we have a mind of the Spirit and its not the mind of God's spirit either.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
What is in blue says after He searches the hearts then He knoweth the mind of the spirit. (spirit of that mind) God don't have to search anything to know His own mind.
Roma.07
21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Scripture says we have a carnal mind which is sin against God and we have a mind of the Spirit and its not the mind of God's spirit either.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
What is in blue says after He searches the hearts then He knoweth the mind of the spirit. (spirit of that mind) God don't have to search anything to know His own mind.
Roma.07
21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
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Brother Bob
New Member
We cannot worship God in the flesh for He searches such to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
It is the inward man that is born again and is the keeper of the outward man by the help of the Holy Ghost dwelling inside of Him. That is why Jesus came so He could take it out of the flesh and put it in the heart. If you are right and the outward man is born again then he would not have to die, for that which is born of an incorruptible seed cannot sin or cannot die.
The mind within a man is the mind and Spirit of Christ if He has been born again.
It is the inward man that is born again and is the keeper of the outward man by the help of the Holy Ghost dwelling inside of Him. That is why Jesus came so He could take it out of the flesh and put it in the heart. If you are right and the outward man is born again then he would not have to die, for that which is born of an incorruptible seed cannot sin or cannot die.
The mind within a man is the mind and Spirit of Christ if He has been born again.
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Brother Bob
New Member
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
In Greek, it could of been "spirit" in original text or it could of been "Spirit". It could of been "our soul" or our "mind".
I will stay with the inward man is born again because that is the soul and it can't die anymore and this body shall die. At death according to Paul there is a part that shall be with Christ and I believe it to be the soul which cannot sin if it born of God.
The body does sin but not the kind of sins we did before being saved for we have a kept by the power of God which dwell within the soul.
4151
pneuma
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.
In Greek, it could of been "spirit" in original text or it could of been "Spirit". It could of been "our soul" or our "mind".
I will stay with the inward man is born again because that is the soul and it can't die anymore and this body shall die. At death according to Paul there is a part that shall be with Christ and I believe it to be the soul which cannot sin if it born of God.
The body does sin but not the kind of sins we did before being saved for we have a kept by the power of God which dwell within the soul.
4151
pneuma
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.
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We have only one mind. I believe that if you insist on saying that we have two minds it seems that you are getting into mysticism. It is not the number of minds that a person has that counts. He has only one (unless he is a schizophrenic). The key is: what is he doing with the mind that he has?Brother Bob said:
We are commanded:
"Let this mind be in you which is also in Christ."
We need to have the mind of Christ.
"Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on thee, because he trusteth in thee.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
We don't have more than one mind. However once we are saved, and submit ourselves to the Holy Spirit our mind is renewed by the Holy Spirit. It is transformed. Our goal is to become conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
There is only one mind. The question is: Who is the master of that mind. We often ask the question in a different way: Who sits on the throne of your heart. You only have one heart. You only have one mind. They are the same thing. The heart and the mind are the same.
When Jesus said "Out of the heart proceeds: adulteries, fornications, murders, etc.," what did he mean. They certainly don't proceed out of the physical heart, but rather out of our physical mind. In other words we think and plan out what we are going to do. We sin willfully after we think about it. Murder is often a result of anger. It proceeeds from the heart (mind). They are synonymous. And there is only one mind.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
--The old nature against the new nature given to us by Christ. They war against each other. But the war is in the mind.
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
If I yield my mind to the world, the devil, to self, then what is the result. Verses 19-31 give the result. Adultery, fornication, uncleanness...
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
--But if I yield my mind to the control of the Holy Spirit the result will be very different.
Brother Bob
New Member
But if I am not mistaken, you are one who said you didn't have to yeild your mind to the Holy Ghost all the time. You could go in and out.
You could even commit adultery and all those things you listed as works of the flesh.
I don't believe that for a moment.
Do you have the mind of Christ when you committ all those sins of the flesh while you are supposed to be saved?
First of all give an answer to that which is born of God cannot sin.
It is the mind of Christ that is in you and that is why you are born again and cannot sin inwardly.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not
the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall
also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
There is still an inner man and a outward man. The inward man is born again and is where Christ dwelleth. It is the soul of a
saved man. The outward man is the body and has to die. If it were the whole man that was born again then there would be no
more death for the children of God.
This is scripture and to deny it is to deny the word of God.
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Brother Bob
New Member
You are combining the heart and the mind as one but the scripture does not do that. He said I will put my laws in their mind and write them in their heart .
1Pe 3:16Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
Thought that one should be added also.
You speak of who sits on the throne of your heart but If I remember right you are the one who said a child of God could do any of those things you mentioned that happens in the flesh and still be saved. He must not be a very powerful ruler sitting on the throne of our heart if He allows us to committ such actions.
That is why I believe the inward man is cleasnsed up and the outward man in brought under bondage. The inward man will accend up into Heaven at death and the outward man will go to the grave until the resurrection. The inward man is incorruptable being born again of an incorruptable seed and can't die or sin. The outward man must die and can sin but not the kind of sin you listed.
I still would like to know your take on, "that which is born of God cannot sin".
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Brother Bob
New Member
You accuse me of saying a man has two minds, of which I said, and was mistaken about how I said it, but the fact remains, I
still
say a man has two minds. You said that if I insisted on continuing to say a man has two minds, that I was getting into
mysticism (unless I was aschizophrenic).
Well, you also say a man has two minds ,except you say the carnal mind is sometimes good and sometimes bad, but the
scripture says that the carnal mind is an enemy to God and that we cannot worship God with a carnal mind. It also says, the
carnal mind is not subject to the laws of God and neither indeed can be. Then you say we have inwardly, the mind of Christ, of
which I agree with you and that makes both of our two minds. The difference is you say that the mind of Christ that is within
you is sitting on a throne, and sometimes rules and sometimes don't.
I say that the mind and Spirit of Christ are the leader of the inward man and bring the outward man into bondage but the
outward man is not yet perfect, for he has a thorn in the side and commits sin, but not the sins, that are a sin unto death,
such as murder. I believe the only reason the mind of Christ is in the inward man, is because he has been "born again" and
therefore cannot sin, or die. You believe the sin comes from the inward man, and I say it comes for the carnal mind which is in
warfare with the mind of Christ. I believe the inward man, with the mind and Spirit of Christ which is in the soul, has delivered
it from a dead state of sin unto a lively hope in Christ. The outward man, is still a corruptable man and must wait until the
resurrection for its change, but the inward man, which is where the mind of Christ is ,and the Spirit of Christ is already
cleasnsed up and ready for Heaven and the only thing holding it back is that it is in bondage to the outward man, who is
perishing. The inward man is renewed day by day and just waiting till death to be delivered to Heaven. amen,
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Even Christ teaches that the heart and mind are the same. This is easily seen with a bit of deductive reasoning. I have tried to explain it to you more than once and have already quoted Scripture to you. Why do you ignore the Scripture I quote. Let's run throught this logically again.Brother Bob said:
1. Christ said: "Out of the mind proceeds adulteries, fornications, murders, etc.,.
2. Every such sin originates in the mind.
3. One has to admit that murder and adultery, for example, are normally well planned out ahead of time. You think about it in your mind before you do it. But Jesus said "out of the heart" The heart and the mind are the same. The heart is simply a figure of speecy for the mind.
Different parts of the body are used to indicate different emotons.
Paul used "bowels of mercy" Is mercy contained in my intestines?
He said (1Pet.1:13) "Gird up the loins of your mind)
--Does the mind have loins (as in thighs or hips)?
God promises (through Isaiah) that He will uphold us with the "right hand" of his righteousness. But does righteousness come or originate from the right hand of God, especially considering that God is Spirit, and spirit does not have "right hands"?
Body parts, referring to God and spiritual concepts, are anthropormorphisms. They are figurative expressions to help us understand God more. God doesn't have a heart, though we speak of the heart of God. God is spirit. God has no hands, though we speak of the hand of God. And man has no heart other than the one that pumps blood. It is a figurative expression for the mind.
I take what the Bible says at face value.
The Bible says: "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
That includes you and I. If you deny that, you have just lied and committed another sin. You are a sinner according to the word of God, and deserve nothing but Hell in His sight. We do not merit heaven, but hell. Salvation is all of grace, not by anything that we have done. We are frail creatures of God, sinful, vile, wretched, deserving of nothing but the wrath of God, and Hell itself.
Thus we are dependent on the grace of God and the love of God, if we should even expect to be saved. God's offer of the gift of eternal life is totallly based on his grace--the sacrificial blood of the Lord Jesus Christ which he shed by grace.
We either reject it or accept it by faith and faith alone. If I accept it by faith I have salvation. He gives unto me eternal life, a gift that he will never take away. I become his child, a child that he will never disinherit. I become born into his family; wherin it is impossible to be "unborn." I become his heir and a joint-heir with Jesus Christ. He will never disinherit me. I am totally assured of my salvation based on the promises of God for God does not lie.
It will never happen in your life time. The new nature that we are given renews our mind and spirit; that is true. But our old nature is still here. That is not brought under bondage. Paul described how it was active, and how there was that constant struggle between the old and the new in Romans 7. It is never dead; never eradicated until the resurrection takes place and we receive our glorified bodies. Untll then we will sin. We will give into our fleshly natures. Only Christ is sinless. We will never be sinless. It is impossible. If it were possible never to sin, then why would Christ have to die?? He died for the penalty of our sins.
This is a strange philosophy you have which cannot be proven from Scripture. The only thing that goes to the grave is the physical body. The spirit will either go to hell or heaven, depending on whether it was saved or not. The corpse has no "outward man" or carnal soul or spirit. That is totally unbiblical. Flesh, per se, is neither sinful or inherently good. It is simply molecules put together controlled by the mind. The mind is either submitted to the Holy Ghost or to the world and self. That decision is yours to make.
The tense in that verse is present continuous. It refers to a person persisting in a sinful lifestyle. A person who commits adultery may go to heaven. He may even go to heaven while he is in the act of committing adultery. His sins are covered by the blood. Every one sins. However if he keeps on sinning, if he keeps on in that lifestyle of adultery, it is certain that he is not born again. A Christian does not continue in a lifestyle of sin. He does not keep on sinning or keep in a pattern of sinning. That is what the verse means. It does not mean that a person must be completely free from sin. That would be a contradition of 1John 1:8,10, and would be making Christ a liar.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Would you be offended if I said that you clearly suggest a sinning religion is completely possible?
If I were forced to choose between BB’s two minds and the adulterous salvation you have suggested as possible, I would say, bring on the two minds.
God help us.
Brother Bob
New Member
Amen Hevenly;
Also, I don't know if you reread my post where I corrected the two minds to be one your mind and the other the mind of Christ which is inwardly.
The corpse is the outward man. You don't understand what I have posted.
This is not even close to what the scripture says. There is a part of a man that is saved that cannot sin. Think what you are saying, you already said that the mind of Christ is in the inward man and now you are saying that part can sin. I take what the scripture says anytime.
1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Please show me where it says you cannot sin but just not all the time. You do not have an answer to this because there is no answer when you apply it to the outward man which is still waiting to be made alive again and does sin. There is a part of man that has already been reborn of an incorruptible seed, can't sin, can't die.
BTW, this is the part I believe is going to Heaven at death of the body, not something that don't even exist.
1Sa 2:35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, [that] shall do according to [that] which [is] in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
1Ch 28:9 ¶ And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Dan 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Jesus may use the heart and the mind together as one at times but they are separate from each other, according to the words of Jesus. Please give me scripture where Jesus said the mind and the heart are the same thing.
Do you know what "born again is", and do you believe there is some part of a man that is "born again"? If you get it right about the definition of "born again", then you would know that according to scriptures that is what is born of the Spirit and is a new man inwardly, born of an incorruptible seed. If this has not taken place in your life then you are lacking.
Why do you change scripture to make your point?
Mar 7:21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Another thread says "Do you know you are saved".
According to your belief, I would like to know what saved means and do you mean "Do you know you will be saved?"
Also, I don't know if you reread my post where I corrected the two minds to be one your mind and the other the mind of Christ which is inwardly.
The corpse is the outward man. You don't understand what I have posted.
This is not even close to what the scripture says. There is a part of a man that is saved that cannot sin. Think what you are saying, you already said that the mind of Christ is in the inward man and now you are saying that part can sin. I take what the scripture says anytime.
1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Please show me where it says you cannot sin but just not all the time. You do not have an answer to this because there is no answer when you apply it to the outward man which is still waiting to be made alive again and does sin. There is a part of man that has already been reborn of an incorruptible seed, can't sin, can't die.
BTW, this is the part I believe is going to Heaven at death of the body, not something that don't even exist.
1Sa 2:35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, [that] shall do according to [that] which [is] in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
1Ch 28:9 ¶ And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Dan 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Jesus may use the heart and the mind together as one at times but they are separate from each other, according to the words of Jesus. Please give me scripture where Jesus said the mind and the heart are the same thing.
You continueously use this scripture and its talking about when we were all unsaved.
I consider this statement to be from misunderstanding of the scriptures and certainly not from God. I truly believe if someone said such a thing that he should be removed from the pulpit. I am sure that satan would be very pleased if we all taught men to do such a thing for it would be exactly what he wants.
Do you know what "born again is", and do you believe there is some part of a man that is "born again"? If you get it right about the definition of "born again", then you would know that according to scriptures that is what is born of the Spirit and is a new man inwardly, born of an incorruptible seed. If this has not taken place in your life then you are lacking.
Why do you change scripture to make your point?
Mar 7:21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Another thread says "Do you know you are saved".
According to your belief, I would like to know what saved means and do you mean "Do you know you will be saved?"
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Brother Bob
New Member
We are made in His image. How do you know what the Spirit has? Have you seen one or have scripture saying what the Spirit has. Below, you will see where God said He had a face. I think I could find plenty scriptures saying different parts of God. He went walking in the Garden, wonder what He was walking on?
Rev 1:17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Exd 33:20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Act 13:22And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the [son] of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
Which Bible do you use DHK?
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Brother Bob
New Member
That one would be hard to get around Claudia, that is for sure. 
Brother Bob
New Member
I think someone finally said something nice to me, thanks.
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