Under Grace or Under Law?

[webdog]

HP: Would you be offended if I said that you clearly suggest a sinning religion is completely possible?

If I were forced to choose between BB’s two minds and the adulterous salvation you have suggested as possible, I would say, bring on the two minds.

God help us.

I don't see that suggestion, whatsoever of an "adulterous salvation". This is works based salvation in a nutshell if you believe you can lose eternal life over an act of adultery.

 

[webdog]

The Bible says we were made in God's image

...then we should not nor cannot ever sin, right? We are after all made in His image...

 

[Claudia_T]

...then we should not nor cannot ever sin, right? We are after all made in His image...

well adam and even were made in His image but after sin things changed for us

 

[Claudia_T]

sometimes I would like to try being on the other side of this debate, I think you guys could come up with some really good stuff LOL! I ought to try it just for entertainment purposes.

 

[Claudia_T]

Let's seeeee...

What about the woman caught in adultery. Jesus comes by and those guys throw her out there for Him to condemn and He forgives her.

What if when they threw her onto the ground she whops her head against the pavement and dies before Jesus got the chance to tell her that she was forgiven?

Would this woman have gone to Hell?

Would her salvation depend upon how angry those men were and thus how hard they threw her to the ground?

Claudia

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't see that suggestion, whatsoever of an "adulterous salvation". This is works based salvation in a nutshell if you believe you can lose eternal life over an act of adultery.__________________

Its not a "works based Salvation", it is "never had Salvation".

No wonder the churches throughout the nation have all this adultereous acts going on supposedly in the church. Paul said from such to withdraw thyself. If we teach everyone that you won't lose your salvation "go to it", there are more and more who do it instead of teaching them that adultery is a sin of death and that is eternal death without repentance.

 

[webdog]

Its not a "works based Salvation", it is "never had Salvation".

No wonder the churches throughout the nation have all this adultereous acts going on supposedly in the church. Paul said from such to withdraw thyself. If we teach everyone that you won't lose your salvation "go to it", there are more and more who do it instead of teaching them that adultery is a sin of death and that is eternal death without repentance.

But Bob, who is to say they never had salvation besides God? If the option for a true believer to never commit adultery existed, that same ability for a Christian to never lust exists too, meaning no true Christian male can lust...or they were never saved to begin with. Please show me one male believer who has not lusted after becoming a believer. It's something I struggle with at times. Jesus classifes lust as adultery, does He not? Am I not a true child of God because I have lusted?

 

[Brother Bob]

But Bob, who is to say they never had salvation besides God? If the option for a true believer to never commit adultery existed, that same ability for a Christian to never lust exists too, meaning no true Christian male can lust...or they were never saved to begin with. Please show me one male believer who has not lusted after becoming a believer. It's something I struggle with at times. Jesus classifes lust as adultery, does He not? Am I not a true child of God because I have lusted?

Everytime someone mentions adultery then this scripture come up about the lust in the heart. Well, what is lust in the heart. Is it too think someone is pretty, I don't think so. Lust in the heart is to look at a woman/man which ever it is and to actually lust in your heart to "have her". That in no way is to look at a woman and think she is pretty. I look at some and think they are "ugly". Is that a "unlust". No!!!

You said show you one believer, well you can't see me but I don't let myself go so far as lust after someone. I would turn in my credentials if I thought I did.

Do I think some women are more prettier than others, yes.
Is that lust, No!

Do I see women who reveal too much, yes.
Do I lust after them, No!! I move on with my life and wonder why they would show themselves that way, but then I know why.

Everyone thinks if they use that scripture it will get all men, but they fail to explain to all the men that to think someone is pretty is not lust. If a man loves God more than the lust of that woman then he has no problem.

Now someone will say, he is a liar. Well, think what you want but you better get closer to the Lord and quit worrying so much about women. No wonder they are so quick to forgive all these pastors who preach against adultery while all the time committing it themselves. He is not only guilty of adultery but also of being a hypocrit and putting God to an open shame.
Don't you think the world laughed their heads off when someone who professes to be a Christian molests a little boy or run off with someone's wife. Satan is in his glory when that happens.
I for one, don't intend on helping satan have any glory.

 

[DHK]

HP: Would you be offended if I said that you clearly suggest a sinning religion is completely possible?

If I were forced to choose between BB’s two minds and the adulterous salvation you have suggested as possible, I would say, bring on the two minds.

God help us.

Of course I am not offended, especially if we can keep a conversation civil.
The "theology" that is being promoted here is one of "sinless perfection" or "entire sanctification," which I believe is unscriptural and impossible to achieve until one gets to heaven. Perhaps some of you misunderstand my position. I am not advocating that a person living a sinful lifestyle would go to heaven. The Bible indicates that such a person is not saved. But even then it is God that knows the heart. We can't make that judgement call. Many are in a backslidden condition. We cannot judge the heart; only God can. That is the Scriptural postion. One must not put themselves in the place of God.
Most of you would have condemned Lot to hell long ago, but God said "that righteous man."
Most of you would have said that that death bed cry for help by the thief of the cross was a false profession. Even on the cross he was dying as a thief. It is the equivalent of what you are saying now. You would judge his words as shallow and unrepentant. But Christ knew his heart, and were it not recorded in Scripture, you would probably assume that he would be in Hell today.
How many people assume that Annanias and Sapphira are not saved?
Were they? They died having not repented of lying to the Holy Spirit.
What about the believers that were struck dead because of not rightly observing the Lord's Table. Did they repent before the Lord meted out swift justice. It is unlikely. (1Cor.11:30). Are they in Hell today?
Thus many of you are putting yourselves in the place of God, and are judging whether or not a person is in heaven. That is not your position.

What is the difference between a lie (Annias and Sapphira), and adultery? There is no difference--none whatsoever. The consequences may be different. But in both sins you have broken God's law. Sin is a transgression of the law. What some here seem to be doing is taking on Catholic theology and dividing sin up--mortal sin, venial sin, etc. Are there some sins more seriuos than other sins? NO! All sin, and/or any sin will condemn a person to hell. The actual sin that condemns a person to hell, of course, is rejection of Jesus Christ. But Christ paid the penalty for all sin. When one rejects that penalty, that sacrifice, he rejects the only way that satisfaction can be made for the penalty of his sins. It matters not at the time of death, whether the sin is confessed or not. God does not demand that as far as salvation is concerned. It matters only as far as fellowship with Him is concerned. As far as salvation is concerned our sin is under the blood, to be remembered no more.

 

[webdog]

Everytime someone mentions adultery then this scripture come up about the lust in the heart. Well, what is lust in the heart. Is it too think someone is pretty, I don't think so. Lust in the heart is to look at a woman/man which ever it is and to actually lust in your heart to "have her". That in no way is to look at a woman and think she is pretty. I look at some and think they are "ugly". Is that a "unlust". No!!!

You said show you one believer, well you can't see me but I don't let myself go so far as lust after someone. I would turn in my credentials if I thought I did.

Do I think some women are more prettier than others, yes.
Is that lust, No!

Do I see women who reveal too much, yes.
Do I lust after them, No!! I move on with my life and wonder why they would show themselves that way, but then I know why.

Everyone thinks if they use that scripture it will get all men, but they fail to explain to all the men that to think someone is pretty is not lust. If a man loves God more than the lust of that woman then he has no problem.

Now someone will say, he is a liar. Well, think what you want but you better get closer to the Lord and quit worrying so much about women. No wonder they are so quick to forgive all these pastors who preach against adultery while all the time committing it themselves. He is not only guilty of adultery but also of being a hypocrit and putting God to an open shame.
Don't you think the world laughed their heads off when someone who professes to be a Christian molests a little boy or run off with someone's wife. Satan is in his glory when that happens.
I for one, don't intend on helping satan have any glory.

Bob, I don't think this is a matter not CHOOSING to lust...but the argument that a true child of God CANNOT lust. If you do not think a true child of God can lust, you would not have the pornography problems amongst christian men (and women). There are ministries dealing with this problem alone. If it is impossible for a christian to commit adultery, it is also an impossibility for a chrisitan to lust.

 

[Gup20]

I joined this conversation late, but have something to offer. Having just come out of a "Word of Faith" church, I know a thing or two about works vs faith.

Basically, it boils down to this:

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

If our salvation were by grace through faith, then our actions have no bearing on our salvation. The only exception is -- as James describes -- where our actions reveal our true beliefs.

For example, if a car were speeding towards you, and you told a crowd of people you believed there was no way the car would hit you, but at the last moment you dove out of the way of the car, your actions would have revealed that you truely -- in your heart -- believed the car was going to hit you. In a manner of speaking, it could be said that your fears are your faith in death itself.

When dealing with Works vs Salvation there are TWO avenues to explore. First, the idea of attaining salvation initially, and second, the idea of maintaining that salvation. I would say that MOST christians believe that you cannot ATTAIN salvation by works alone, but only by faith. However, those same christians may falter if they are asked if they can loose their salvation by works alone.

God is the author of logic and reason (Isa 1:18). It is from his ultimate supreme logic and reason that the universe exists without chaos. To be logically consistant, one must believe the same regarding attaining salvation as one does regarding keeping salvation.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[Claudia_T]

its too bad so many dont get what it means to be "under the Spirit" instead of "under the law".

It certainly doesnt mean you are free to sin now.

Galatians 5
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


THE KEY is in these two verses...
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


There is NO LAW against these things because if you are doing them you are KEEPING THE LAW. Thats what LOVE IS! the only difference is you are doing it by YIELDING YOUR MEMBERS to the Holy Spirit and to RIGHTEOUSNESS... instead of to SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS (transgressing the law)

Romans 8
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

we already read above what "the deeds of the flesh" are in Galatians 5:19,20 Nand we are told in Romans 8:13 that IF WE MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE FLESH WE SHALL LIVE!!


the scriptures all harmonize if you read them, its not like you have to pit one section against the other and choose one of them while ignoring the other.

 

[Gup20]

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

What you are suggesting is logically inconsistant. You say on the one hand we are saved by faith, but on the other that - basically - we can loose our salvation if we do not adhere to the law. What you are trying to do is logically link our dead bodies we live in on earth to our new eternal bodies we will have in heaven. This is inconsistant, and will not work. As paul says, we are dead in the law, so why try to build again what has already been destroyed. Your eternal life in Christ is accomplished when you believe in Jesus Christ. This cannot be undone by futher sin. The concept Paul tries to relay in Galatians 5 is that -- now that you are free to choose life, do not continue to choose the things that brought death in the first place. Once you are free from sin, you are no longer a slave to sin.

Hbr 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Now that we are no longer afraid of death, there is no need to be subjugated by it. Additionally, you are attributing the fruit of the spirit as the Spirit itself. That's like saying that the liight in lighning is a result of the thunder. No... the thunder and the lightning are evidence of a static electrical discharge. While Paul makes clear that we should not use our liberty as a free pass to sin, it is directly stated that we are in effect free to sin because our belief in Christ is what justifies us, not our actions. Again... Paul isn't saying we SHOULD sin... but that sin (and the Law) no longer holds any authority over us because of the grace we have In Christ.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob, I don't think this is a matter not CHOOSING to lust...but the argument that a true child of God CANNOT lust. If you do not think a true child of God can lust, you would not have the pornography problems amongst christian men (and women). There are ministries dealing with this problem alone. If it is impossible for a christian to commit adultery, it is also an impossibility for a chrisitan to lust.__________________

I am saying that Jesus said for us not to do it and many say we are doing it. Such as there is no difference in sin. To miss church for being lazy vs committing adultery with the neighbor's wife while he is at church. One is if you overtake a brother in the sin of missing church you talk to him, the other is if one is committing adultery according to Paul, you withdraw from him.
Someone will say now "such were some of you", well that is true when we were unsaved.
I am trying to tell you and DKH that is the wrong message for the leaders in church to be teaching the world of mankind. I know satan would be glad to help you but it is not right.

 

[EdSutton]

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

What you are suggesting is logically inconsistant. You say on the one hand we are saved by faith, but on the other that - basically - we can loose our salvation if we do not adhere to the law. What you are trying to do is logically link our dead bodies we live in on earth to our new eternal bodies we will have in heaven. This is inconsistant, and will not work. As paul (sic) says, we are dead in the law, so why try to build again what has already been destroyed. Your eternal life in Christ is accomplished when you believe in Jesus Christ. This cannot be undone by futher sin. The concept Paul tries to relay in Galatians 5 is that -- now that you are free to choose life, do not continue to choose the things that brought death in the first place. Once you are free from sin, you are no longer a slave to sin.

Hbr 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Now that we are no longer afraid of death, there is no need to be subjugated by it. Additionally, you are attributing the fruit of the spirit as the Spirit itself. That's like saying that the liight in lighning is a result of the thunder. No... the thunder and the lightning are evidence of a static electrical discharge. While Paul makes clear that we should not use our liberty as a free pass to sin, it is directly stated that we are in effect free to sin because our belief in Christ is what justifies us, not our actions. Again... Paul isn't saying we SHOULD sin... but that sin (and the Law) no longer holds any authority over us because of the grace we have In Christ.

Well said, generally, although I believe Paul actually said "we are dead to the law"!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Gup20; If you are doing the things below then it is a sure sign you are not under faith.
It don't matter how often you say you are if you commit such actions you do not have the blood of Christ.

Gal
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The only way you are "dead to the Law" is because you have Christ and the Laws are in your heart and your mind. If you are dead to the Law means you don't break those laws because Christ set you free. He didn't set you free to break them, that is foolish. He through His blood set you free and you are no longer under their bondage for they have no control over you because you have the mind of Christ. Christ did not have a mind to commit adultery, of whose mind we now have.

The above scripture says if we do such things we shall not inherit the kingdom of God, not if we are doing them when we die we still go to Heaven. If we say and teach men to do such things we are in danger of hell fire.

 

[EdSutton]

I know satan (sic) would be glad to help you but it is not right.

I seemingly manage to do enough wrong without his help, personally. :saint: :laugh:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Gup20; If you are doing the things below then it is a sure sign you are not under faith.
It don't matter how often you say you are if you commit such actions you do not have the blood of Christ.

Gal
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Bob, read the next verses, here, and the parallel passage of I Cor. 6:9-12, where verses 11 and 12 state -

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (NKJV - my emphasis)

A text out of context is a pretext to a proof-text. (Author unknown to me, unfortunately.)

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (NKJV - my emphasis)

Ed; reread my #114 post, please

Also, the next verses are saying what I am saying if you been saved and have the mind of Christ you don't do such things as above. The text was completely in context, not out.

So many take it as those churches back then only had the "saved" inside of them but that is why Paul traveled so much was to try and clean them of such things that were among them. One bad apple will spoil the whole barrell and Paul knew that better than I.

 

[Gup20]

Gup20; If you are doing the things below then it is a sure sign you are not under faith.
It don't matter how often you say you are if you commit such actions you do not have the blood of Christ.

Gal
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Is Envy an unforgivable sin? Is drunkeness an unforgivable sin? Is Jesus' work on the cross insufficient to cover for these sins?

I FULLY agree that we should not do these things, but where I disagree is in the implication that we could loose our salvation by the action alone. It stands to reason that ONLY the accompanying abcense of fatih/belief in Jesus Christ along with these actions could absolve one's salvation.

Gal 3 -- having begun in the spirit are we made perfect by the flesh? If the flesch cannot perfect what was begun in the spirit, how then can the flesh corrupt what was accomplished in the spirit?

The above scripture says if we do such things we shall not inherit the kingdom of God, not if we are doing them when we die we still go to Heaven. If we say and teach men to do such things we are in danger of hell fire.

Indeed, I am not advocating that we use our freedom in Christ as an excuse to sin. However, I am advocating that a brother who stumbles into sin doesn't dissolve their salvation. For what was born in the spirit cannot be unborn by the flesh... but only by the spirit. In other words, it is what is in the heart that matters, even though our actions are important.

The mature christian will realize that God has guidelines on "the right way" to live, and that he or she can achieve a much deeper and more meaningful relationship with God (and other people) by following the 'right way'.