Under Grace or Under Law?

[EdSutton]

BTW, I have never condoned "what David did", by any stretch. I just reported what Scripture said about him.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

You equate that to:

God said you couldn't do those things and go to Heaven, you and others say they can. Which one do you think is right you or God. Oh, you say to join the church boys and then you can play the folly, get drunk, slap you mommie silly or do whatever you want. It will be alright for Jesus died for you and just because you happened to be on top of your neighbors wife when you saw the death angel coming, no need to worry, you have the blood of Christ. Yikes,

I don't recall saying any one of these things, frankly. (I cannot speak for anyone other.) Perhaps someone can refresh my memory.

Ed

 

[DHK]

Why did Jesus come?

Perhaps that is the most significant question that has been asked thus far. Why did Jesus come. The Bible says that he came to save us from our sins.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

When one believes on him he is given eternal life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

As one consdiers what Christ did on the cross, and the price that he paid for our sins, we ought not to make light of the sacrifice that he paid.
John 19:30 Christ said: "It is finished." That meant that the payment for our sins was finished. He had satisfied the demands of the Father. Our sins, at that point in time had been atoned for. Now, all that remained was for the individual to believe and accept that sacrifice that it might become efficacious.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now, considering the above, we ask the question again:
Why did Christ die?
He died to save us from our sins--to grant us forgiveness from our sins. Without the death of Christ there would be no possibility of forgiveness of sins. My sins are all forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. They are all under the blood--past, present, and future.

If you say that one cannot enter heaven because of any unconfessed sin, even if it may be adultery then at the same time you are admitting to a religion of works. Your faith is one based on confession, a work that you must strive for. It is no longer by grace but of works. It is more like Catholicism. You must choose: grace or works--Which one.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You advertise your religion to be one of works, and not of grace. Confession (extreme unction) is a condition of salvation. Are you sure you are not a Catholic?

 

[Brother Bob]

I am curious as to why the subject of Adultery seems to come up so often in your posts, and wonder if it is somehow prevalent among your church area? It seems to get a lot of mention, at least. And I agree, that it is a very grevious sin. But I don't see it as defined Biblically as "the sin unto death", and challenge any to tell me exactly what is that sin.

I use adultery because it is one of the sins which is easily understood to be bad. I can use another if you like but this one has been defended so much that It is easier to continue to use it. I think Haggard kinda brought it to the forefront. No, adultery is not something we deal with a lot except we have had a few pastors over the years that run off with a young girl and I say the same about them as I have said on here.

I guess I wonder if those who take the position you have taken and when you supported the others I assumed that you agreed with them.
I wonder if you all have a stopping point where you would say that person was not saved? I know its not our position to judge who is saved and who is not but you all have taken the position to say who is saved so I wonder if there is a sin so greiveous that you would say "enough" I will not defend them?

Don't get me wrong Ed because I take this position so hard, I do like you and always have since I been on here. Webdog is my friend, or at least I think so and he takes your position. I will take just as hard a stance against him as I have you. peace,

 

[Claudia_T]

Here is why Jesus came


1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[El_Guero]

"Under the Law or Under Grace?"

Both.

:godisgood:

 

[El_Guero]

I thank God that He gave another reason for coming, and that was my salvation . . . indeed the salvation of the whole world. (John 3: 16 - 17).

Here is why Jesus came


1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Why did Jesus come?

Perhaps that is the most significant question that has been asked thus far. Why did Jesus come. The Bible says that he came to save us from our sins.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

When one believes on him he is given eternal life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

As one consdiers what Christ did on the cross, and the price that he paid for our sins, we ought not to make light of the sacrifice that he paid.
John 19:30 Christ said: "It is finished." That meant that the payment for our sins was finished. He had satisfied the demands of the Father. Our sins, at that point in time had been atoned for. Now, all that remained was for the individual to believe and accept that sacrifice that it might become efficacious.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now, considering the above, we ask the question again:
Why did Christ die?
He died to save us from our sins--to grant us forgiveness from our sins. Without the death of Christ there would be no possibility of forgiveness of sins. My sins are all forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. They are all under the blood--past, present, and future.

If you say that one cannot enter heaven because of any unconfessed sin, even if it may be adultery then at the same time you are admitting to a religion of works. Your faith is one based on confession, a work that you must strive for. It is no longer by grace but of works. It is more like Catholicism. You must choose: grace or works--Which one.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You advertise your religion to be one of works, and not of grace. Confession (extreme unction) is a condition of salvation. Are you sure you are not a Catholic?
__________________
DHK

DHK;
This is probably one of the best post you have made. I agree with ever thing you said except the part about me and the works. You are wrong and in place of saying I advocate works, please insert I believe in a strong God that is able to keep me from the sins unto death. I trust Him with all my being that He will deliver me blameless. If He let me do those things we been discussing then I would not be blameless. I do wish you would consider what the result of what you are saying when you say I could be in the very act of adultery and go to Heaven. You are saying God is weak and couldn't keep me from such an act. I am sorry but I am led by the Spirit of God and it does not lead me that way. Now, I offer you my peace and if I have offended you in any way please forgive me. I do love my God and I do not sin as you say I do. I don't consider sin as you do, a ticket, angry etc. I mostly use the Ten Commandments as my guide as Apostle Paul did. peace,

 

[Claudia_T]

I thank God that He gave another reason for coming, and that was my salvation . . . indeed the salvation of the whole world. (John 3: 16 - 17).

the key is the Bible says BOTH things

 

[EdSutton]

I wonder if you all have a stopping point where you would say that person was not saved?

Absolutely! You can find it in Ephesians 2, John 3, and John 6, among others.


"For by grace you have been saved".
"He that believeth on the Son has everlasting life; he that believeth not the Son sahll not see life, but the wrath of God keeps on abiding on Him".
"Truly, truly I say unto you, "He that believes in me has everlasting life.""

I know its not our position to judge who is saved and who is not but you all have taken the position to say who is saved so I wonder if there is a sin so greiveous (sic) that you would say "enough" I will not defend them?

I will not attempt to decree someone is lost, if that is what you are asking. In fact, as I understand Scripture, the only unpardonable sin is that of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
And since I am not exactly sure of what that entails, I'll leave it to the One(s) qualified in that determination. That is the job of the triune God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Ed

 

[Claudia_T]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means to keep rejecting the voice of God till finally you put light for darkness and darkness for light

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:BBob
I know its not our position to judge who is saved and who is not but you all have taken the position to say who is saved so I wonder if there is a sin so greiveous (sic) that you would say "enough" I will not defend them?

ED:
I will not attempt to decree someone is lost, if that is what you are asking. In fact, as I understand Scripture, the only unpardonable sin is that of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
And since I am not exactly sure of what that entails, I'll leave it to the One(s) qualified in that determination. That is the job of the triune God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Ed

I take that as a no!!

 

[El_Guero]

You quote Scripture about being sinless. You then challenge people to support your premise, then you try to twist your premise around.

Then you gave a singular reason for Christ coming . . . then you changed to two reasons . . . now you are talking about switching the light for darkness.

Were are you going with your OP?

What is your purpose?

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means to keep rejecting the voice of God till finally you put light for darkness and darkness for light

 

[DHK]

DHK;
This is probably one of the best post you have made. I agree with ever thing you said except the part about me and the works. You are wrong and in place of saying I advocate works, please insert I believe in a strong God that is able to keep me from the sins unto death. I trust Him with all my being that He will deliver me blameless. If He let me do those things we been discussing then I would not be blameless. I do wish you would consider what the result of what you are saying when you say I could be in the very act of adultery and go to Heaven. You are saying God is weak and couldn't keep me from such an act. I am sorry but I am led by the Spirit of God and it does not lead me that way. Now, I offer you my peace and if I have offended you in any way please forgive me. I do love my God and I do not sin as you say I do. I don't consider sin as you do, a ticket, angry etc. I mostly use the Ten Commandments as my guide as Apostle Paul did. peace,

Please Bob don't take anything personal. i was writing as objectively as possible using the word "you" generically, meaning anyone, not you personally.
I use the sin of adultery as an example because I know that it is a horrid sin in the eyes of most here. Your definition of a sin unto death and my definition of the same are quite a bit different. Adultery is not a "sin unto death," and one cannot prove it to be so. Perhaps another thread should be started on "sin unto death" or even a bit broader as "types of sin." But adultery does not fall there. Adultery is the same as lying. It is a transgression of the law. They are both breaking the Ten Commandments. So what is the difference in God's sight? None. It is just as bad to die with an unconfessed lie as it is to die with unconfessed adultery or in the act of adultery. What is the difference?
My sins are paid for. They were paid for at the time of salvation. They are under the blood. The minute I put conditions on the work of Christ--like saying that the sin must be confessed before I die, then I take away from grace, and my faith turns into a religion of works. It is no more of grace but of works. One cannot impose conditions on the salvation that Christ provided without any conditions.

 

[EdSutton]

Please Bob don't take anything personal. i was writing as objectively as possible using the word "you" generically, meaning anyone, not you personally.
I use the sin of adultery as an example because I know that it is a horrid sin in the eyes of most here. Your definition of a sin unto death and my definition of the same are quite a bit different. Adultery is not a "sin unto death," and one cannot prove it to be so. Perhaps another thread should be started on "sin unto death" or even a bit broader as "types of sin." But adultery does not fall there. Adultery is the same as lying. It is a transgression of the law. They are both breaking the Ten Commandments. So what is the difference in God's sight? None. It is just as bad to die with an unconfessed lie as it is to die with unconfessed adultery or in the act of adultery. What is the difference?
My sins are paid for. They were paid for at the time of salvation. They are under the blood. The minute I put conditions on the work of Christ--like saying that the sin must be confessed before I die, then I take away from grace, and my faith turns into a religion of works. It is no more of grace but of works. One cannot impose conditions on the salvation that Christ provided without any conditions.

Well said, Preach on!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

2 Timothy, chapter 4

"1": I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

"2": Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

"3": For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

"4": And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.



1 John, chapter 2
1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(He that saith, I know him, are those who say they are saved)

Gal:
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time

past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

 

[DHK]

2 Timothy, chapter 4

"1": I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

"2": Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

"3": For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

"4": And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

What's the problem here. It is Paul's commission to Timothy before he is about to be martyred. He warns him about false teachers that will come into the church after his death. Timothy was a young man. We can see that this actually happened in the church at Corinth. Things were so bad in that church that there were some that even denied the Resurrection (1Cor.15). In Galatians the Judaizers had come with a false gospel saying that circumcision and adherence to the law were necessary also for savation. I John was written to combat gnosticism. Timothy had to preach against false doctrine such as we do today. We preach against false doctrine on a regular basis. I use people like Benny Hinn for an example. People who don't want to endure sound doctrine but...will go after Benny Hinn, one of the richest false teachers alive.

1 John, chapter 2
1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

One of the main purposes of the First Epistle of John is demonstrate to the believer how he can have assurance of his salvation. Thus one of the key words is "know." We know that we are saved because..." John gives various evidences of our salvation throughout the epistle. These are personal that we need to apply to our own lives not to the lives of others, lest we become judges of evil things.
What do his commandments refer to? It does not refer to the 613 rabbinical laws of the OT. It does not refer to the cerremmonial law. It does not refer to the OT. It does not even refer to the Ten Commandments.

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

His commandments were to love one another; to pray without ceasing (Luke 18:1), to search the Scriptures; to have fellowship with one another; to obey the Great Commission (Mat.28:19,20), etc.
He is not speaking of keeping the law, the letter of the law, or of entire sanctification or sinless perfection. No one can live without sin. That is not the point here. We know that we are saved if we are obeying him. It is a life-style of obedience to Christ. It doesn't mean that if I slip up and tell a lie, that I am not a Christian. Paul and Barnabas got angry with each other so much so that they had to part ways. No doubt there was sin involved there. Paul withstood Peter to the face. There was sin involved there. None of the apostles were perfect. No one lives a perfect life, and no man can keep "the law" perfectly.

Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Who are these people? These are the people who are not saved. It contradicts the Bible to say that a saved person who tells a lie will be cast into the lake of fire. Romans 3:4 says: "Let God be true, but every man a liar.
We all are liars. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Rev.21:8 is simply a description of the unsaved who will not enter into heaven. A similar description of the unsaved is given at the end of Romans one.

Gal:
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time
past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

These are the works of the flesh. When one gives his mind over to do the things of the flesh the above is the result. The Bible says we reap what we sow.

Galatians 6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This is written to Christians. Christians sow to the flesh. Christians shall of the flesh (their own sin nature) reap corruption.
But they will not lose their salvation even if it happens just before death.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

So,

According to DHK, all we have to do is love one another and we are sure to make it to heaven... New Age through nd through.

The Commandments Jesus was referring to was indeed the Ten Commandments wrapped up into two.

1. Love the Lord God wholly
2. Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Go back and study DHK.

 

[DHK]

So,

According to DHK, all we have to do is love one another and we are sure to make it to heaven... New Age through nd through.

The Commandments Jesus was referring to was indeed the Ten Commandments wrapped up into two.

1. Love the Lord God wholly
2. Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Go back and study DHK.

Typical of you to take my post out of its context and twist it to mean something other than what I said. Next time quote what I said and try to actually refute what I say by using my quotes vs. Scripture that you have studied. Or is that to difficult for you to do?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Typical of you to deny that 1 John 2 is referring to the Ten Commandments. Of course, I should have known it anyway.

Anyone who tells others it is wrong to question one's salvation and yet does the very same thing he warns others about is going to deny more than the commandments of God's Word.

James warned believers about people like that.

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.