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Under Grace or Under Law?

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D28guy

New Member
Diggin,

"So,

According to DHK, all we have to do is love one another and we are sure to make it to heaven... New Age through nd through."

I have never heard DHK even come close to posting the false gospel that you just attributed to him. You have slandered him. He does not proclaim that if you love others you will be saved.

The only gospel I have heard DHK promote is the same one I and millions of others promote...the true one.

Justification through faith alone in Christ alone, through the subsequent new birth.

Our works have no part in that. Our fruitfullness, or lack thereof, is of course important. It effects our effectiveness as a witness, our being spared Gods discipline, and can cause a loss of rewards in heaven.

But it plays (((ZERO))) part in our justification.

That is why it is such a monsterous insult and slap in the face of God to say that if we die while commiting some sin, we go to hell. That sin, whatever it might be, was atoned for 2000 years ago on the cross. Christ took that sin upon Himself to spare us the condemnation that would have been ours.

God has cursed any gospel of works and it grieves Him mightilly to see His children promoting something that He curses.

Sadly,

Mike
 
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steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Quote:
1Jn:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So you take this to mean that you, Claudia, have never sinned since your conversion to Jesus?

God Bless!

Hey Claudia, you missed my question.

God Bless!
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Typical of you to take my post out of its context and twist it to mean something other than what I said. Next time quote what I said and try to actually refute what I say by using my quotes vs. Scripture that you have studied. Or is that to difficult for you to do?__________________
DHK

Agreed! Would like to see "Diggin in da Word" actually do some "diggin in the word" and refute what DHK actually said!

God Bless!
 

Claudia_T

New Member
steaver said:
Hey Claudia, you missed my question.

God Bless!

Hi Steve,

I didnt see your question till just now.

I have to tell you Steve that this is one verse I just cannot figure out. But I know for sure that it must mean a born again believer doesnt go around sinning all the time... like a heathen. :smilewinkgrin:
 

Claudia_T

New Member
D28guy said:
Diggin,



I have never heard DHK even come close to posting the false gospel that you just attributed to him. You have slandered him. He does not proclaim that if you love others you will be saved.

The only gospel I have heard DHK promote is the same one I and millions of others promote...the true one.

Justification through faith alone in Christ alone, through the subsequent new birth.

Our works have no part in that. Our fruitfullness, or lack thereof, is of course important. It effects our effectiveness as a witness, our being spared Gods discipline, and can cause a loss of rewards in heaven.

But it plays (((ZERO))) part in our justification.

That is why it is such a monsterous insult and slap in the face of God to say that if we die while commiting some sin, we go to hell. That sin, whatever it might be, was atoned for 2000 years ago on the cross. Christ took that sin upon Himself to spare us the condemnation that would have been ours.

God has cursed any gospel of works and it grieves Him mightilly to see His children promoting something that He curses.

Sadly,

Mike


Mike,

I think its a monstrous slap in the face to God if we think He's going to allow people in heaven who go around doing all those things listed in Revelation and Romans that say are not going to be allowed into heaven.

(or something like that) that sentence just didnt come out right :)
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hi Steve,

I didnt see your question till just now.

I have to tell you Steve that this is one verse I just cannot figure out. But I know for sure that it must mean a born again believer doesnt go around sinning all the time... like a heathen. :smilewinkgrin:

Then you have sinned since your conversion......but not like a heathen?

God Bless!
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think its a monstrous slap in the face to God if we think He's going to allow people in heaven who go around doing all those things listed in Revelation and Romans that say are not going to be allowed into heaven.

(or something like that) that sentence just didnt come out right :)

Did you miss the death bural and resurrection that God provided for sinners? Guess what sister? You are a sinner! (don't tell anyone) :wavey:

God Bless!
 

Claudia_T

New Member
steaver said:
Did you miss the death bural and resurrection that God provided for sinners? Guess what sister? You are a sinner! (don't tell anyone) :wavey:

God Bless!

Steve if you will note, the verse before that is left out on here... it SAYS those who overcome will inherit all things... welllllllllllll what do you suppose its saying you will overcome? hmmmmmmmmmmmm???

Revelation 21
7: He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


you can sit there all day and night saying well Jesus died for my sins but thats not the issue there is it? read it outloud to me
 

Claudia_T

New Member
'Splain! this to me?

Revelation 21
7: He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
His commandments were to love one another; to pray without ceasing (Luke 18:1), to search the Scriptures; to have fellowship with one another; to obey the Great Commission (Mat.28:19,20), etc.
He is not speaking of keeping the law, the letter of the law, or of entire sanctification or sinless perfection. No one can live without sin. That is not the point here. We know that we are saved if we are obeying him. It is a life-style of obedience to Christ. It doesn't mean that if I slip up and tell a lie, that I am not a Christian. Paul and Barnabas got angry with each other so much so that they had to part ways. No doubt there was sin involved there. Paul withstood Peter to the face. There was sin involved there. None of the apostles were perfect. No one lives a perfect life, and no man can keep "the law" perfectly.
I believe it is the Ten Commandments and He added the two but if you keep the two then you will be keeping the ten, for it is impossible to love your neighbor and covet his wife or steal from him at the same time. Jesus said to the rich young man who asked what to do to be saved, "thou knowest the Commandments" and began to quote the Ten, He didn't talk about 613 laws of washing the pots and pans. That is a big problem when Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, men confuse that with the Ten Commandment to the 613 of which the ten He said not one jot or tittle would be removed until Heaven and earth passed. Last I checked that hasn't happened yet.

So if you don't keep the Commandments then according to Jesus Himself, you don't even know Him.

You keep bring up angry, where is that in the Ten Commandments anyway? Jesus didn't call it a sin for He said, get angry but sin not.

Quote:
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Who are these people? These are the people who are not saved. It contradicts the Bible to say that a saved person who tells a lie will be cast into the lake of fire. Romans 3:4 says: "Let God be true, but every man a liar.
We all are liars. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Rev.21:8 is simply a description of the unsaved who will not enter into heaven. A similar description of the unsaved is given at the end of Romans one.
To the unsaved is my point, not yours. You are saying come on be ye saved if you want to do those things and it will be alright. I say for you and others to try all you want and you won't get one of them saved unless the repent, and as Jesus told the woman caught in the very act of adultery, "go and sin no more". If she went back to adultery then she is in Hell today.

Gal:
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time
past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God These are the works of the flesh. When one gives his mind over to do the things of the flesh the above is the result. The Bible says we reap what we sow.

Galatians 6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This is written to Christians. Christians sow to the flesh. Christians shall of the flesh (their own sin nature) reap corruption.
But they will not lose their salvation even if it happens just before death.
__________________
DHK
IMO, to say this is to a Christian that all you whoremongers come on and be saved and then you are free to do those things but you will have to eventually die though. Well, guess what? They are going to eventually did the natural death anyway.

I tell you by the authority of God's word, to do these things will send you to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone and you better be cleaning up your churches for if you condone such works then you also will be found wanting when the Lord comes again.

Its hard to believe that someone says "if you so to the flesh,you shall die" is the natural death.

If you so to the Spirit, Ye shall live. Is that this natural life?

I am sorrow DHK, but this doctrine is just not true doctrine and not the Gospel delivered unto the Saints.

Also, to the others. That which is born of God cannot sin it to that which is born of God "born again" which certainly is not the flesh or outward man. He still has to die to receive his changed but that which is born of God is born of an incorruptible seed. You seem to not know what that is but that is where Christ dwells in a man and where the Mind of Christ is. Surely you don't think that Christ dwelling in you sins, do you?
 
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Claudia_T

New Member
Brother Bob said:
You keep bring up angry, where is that in the Ten Commandments anyway? Jesus didn't call it a sin for He said, get angry but sin not.


Bob,

it depends on what kind of anger it is. There is something called Righteous Anger and then there is hateful anger. Its breaking the Thou shalt not kill commandment


Matthew 5
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23: Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24: Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Diggin in the word:
I don't know you but thank God for men like you who are willing to stand up against such nonsense that is being posted on this board that children of God can do sins as bad if not worse if they will only be saved first.

When they say these Commandments are not for the saved, they are right for those who do such things are not saved. If they do all those things it is just a sure sign that they don't even know the Lord. That is the words of the Lord Himself. Then some wonder why we see on TV all the time of these Pastors molesting children, running off with some man's wife. Well, we only hear of the Pastors but if they are teaching their congregation it is alright to do so then I suspect the church house is full of people who do just what satan wants them too and satan laughs his head off at them.

Well, for me and my house. We shall serve the Lord, amen and may God continue with you Diggin.

Claudia, you teach a better message than they do about how a Christian should be. Also, the anger you are talking about has to turn to "hate" before you kill anyone.
 
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webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Brother Bob said:
Diggin in the word:
I don't know you but thank God for men like you who are willing to stand up against such nonsense that is being posted on this board that children of God can do sins as bad if not worse if they will only be saved first.

When they say these Commandments are not for the saved, they are right for those who do such things are not saved. If they do all those things it is just a sure sign that they don't even know the Lord. That is the words of the Lord Himself. Then some wonder why we see on TV all the time of these Pastors molesting children, running off with some man's wife. Well, we only hear of the Pastors but if they are teaching their congregation it is alright to do so then I suspect the church house is full of people who do just what satan wants them too and satan laughs his head off at them.

Well, for me and my house. We shall serve the Lord, amen and may God continue with you Diggin.

Claudia, you teach a better message than they do about how a Christian should be. Also, the anger you are talking about has to turn to "hate" before you kill anyone.
I wouldn't be so quick to side with DIDW, as he butchers Scripture to fit his doctrine(wine mentioned as blessing = grape juice, wine mentioned with drunkeness = wine), nor Claudia (SDA says it all). I'm glad that Christ freed me from the grips of legalism that has been handed down throughout the church ages. Bob, does your denominational bent have anything at all to do with your beliefs?
 

Brother Bob

New Member
I wouldn't be so quick to side with DIDW, as he butchers Scripture to fit his doctrine(wine mentioned as blessing = grape juice, wine mentioned with drunkeness = wine), nor Claudia (SDA says it all). I'm glad that Christ freed me from the grips of legalism that has been handed down throughout the church ages. Bob, does your denominational bent have anything at all to do with your beliefs?__________________
Are you kidding, I been preaching for almost 35 years and not been called down yet. Anyway, I agree with the grape juice also. I don't agree with SDA but do agree with a lot of Bob Ryan and Claudia's beliefs.

Their beliefs sure beat committing adultery and die in the very act and rejoice with the angels in Heaven. That belief makes me ill to my stomach.

Bob, does your denominational bent have anything at all to do with your beliefs?
What is your meaning behind this question Webdog? Am I supposed to believe in dying on top of a women in adultery and then rejoice with the angels in Heaven, to be right in your eyes? Well, I don't believe it and never will, and neither does all our churches from Michigan to Fla, with thousands of members and many churches and several Associations.

Matter of fact, I got a call last night from an Association up North asking me to come and preach for them and stay at their house the weekend. I wish I could but have to remain here for now.
 
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webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Brother Bob said:
Are you kidding, I been preaching for almost 35 years and not been called down yet. Anyway, I agree with the grape juice also. I don't agree with SDA but do agree with a lot of Bob Ryan and Claudia's beliefs.

Their beliefs sure beat committing adultery and die in the very act and rejoice with the angels in Heaven. That belief makes me ill to my stomach.


What is your meaning behind this question Webdog?
I'm not sure what you mean be being "called down yet"...

You agree that we can pick and choose where to add our own definitions of words in Scripture based on our beliefs and not context?

I don't remember seeing anyone advocating that believers who die in the act of adultery are rejoicing in Heaven over it. I may have missed it, but from what I have read I have never seen anyone say this. Fact is, the Bible does NOT ever mention a sin that a believer is able to commit.
You edited this after I posted mine...
What is your meaning behind this question Webdog? Am I supposed to believe in dying on top of a women in adultery and then rejoice with the angels in Heaven, to be right in your eyes? Well, I don't believe it and never will, and neither does all our churches from Michigan to Fla, with thousands of members and many churches and several Associations.
What I mean is, my molding as a believer definately had my denominational bent / beliefs as an influence (SBC / IFB). It was only up until a year or two ago that the way I was taught about certain things took a drastic change once I asked God to open my eyes to His truth, and blind them to church / denominational "tradition". I still struggle with sin to this day, and I struggle with what church tradition labels "sin", also. The thing that irks me the most is when other believers tell me what I believe and do is "sin" after the Holy Spirit has shown me it's not. Sin is sin, period. The Bible and God set the standards of what sin is, and what His reqirements are for salvation. We go to hell because we don't have faith in Christ, not because we commited a certain sin and died prior to being able to repent of it. This is works based justification.
 
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Brother Bob

New Member
I'm not sure what you mean be being "called down yet"...

You agree that we can pick and choose where to add our own definitions of words in Scripture based on our beliefs and not context?

I don't remember seeing anyone advocating that believers who die in the act of adultery are rejoicing in Heaven over it. I may have missed it, but from what I have read I have never seen anyone say this. Fact is, the Bible does NOT ever mention a sin that a believer is able to commit

Called down is by the Elders of the church for preaching false doctrine.

I didn't say that is the reason they went to Heaven, you need to reread my post. I said some said on this very thread that if you die in the very act of adultery and are saved you will go to Heaven and I deny that.

I agree about the Bible not mentioning a sin that a believer can commit.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I sure do agree on the definitions used that are not context. I think I read quite a bit of it.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
What I mean is, my molding as a believer definately had my denominational bent / beliefs as an influence (SBC / IFB). It was only up until a year or two ago that the way I was taught about certain things took a drastic change once I asked God to open my eyes to His truth, and blind them to church / denominational "tradition". I still struggle with sin to this day, and I struggle with what church tradition labels "sin", also. The thing that irks me the most is when other believers tell me what I believe and do is "sin" after the Holy Spirit has shown me it's not. Sin is sin, period. The Bible and God set the standards of what sin is, and what His reqirements are for salvation. We go to hell because we don't have faith in Christ, not because we commited a certain sin and died prior to being able to repent of it. This is works based justification.
So, why ever quit anything? Live and be merry for tomorrow we die.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Brother Bob said:
So, why ever quit anything? Live and be merry for tomorrow we die.
This would be the non believers response...not a believer. A non believer sees nothing wrong with sin.
 
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