-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Under Grace or Under Law?
- Thread starter Claudia_T
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Webdog,
You said...
I dont know what you mean by "rejoicing in Heaven over it", nobody would say that, but I said the rest couple pages back...
Grace and peace,
Mike
You said...
"I don't remember seeing anyone advocating that believers who die in the act of adultery are rejoicing in Heaven over it. I may have missed it, but from what I have read I have never seen anyone say this."
I dont know what you mean by "rejoicing in Heaven over it", nobody would say that, but I said the rest couple pages back...
The only gospel I have heard DHK promote is the same one I and millions of others promote...the true one.
Justification through faith alone in Christ alone, through the subsequent new birth.
Our works have no part in that. Our fruitfullness, or lack thereof, is of course important. It effects our effectiveness as a witness, our being spared Gods discipline, and can cause a loss of rewards in heaven.
But it plays (((ZERO))) part in our justification.
That is why it is such a monsterous insult and slap in the face of God to say that if we die while commiting some sin, we go to hell. That sin, whatever it might be, was atoned for 2000 years ago on the cross. Christ took that sin upon Himself to spare us the condemnation that would have been ours.
God has cursed any gospel of works and it grieves Him mightilly to see His children promoting something that He curses.
Grace and peace,
Mike
Diggin in da Word
New Member
The only gospel I have heard DHK promote is the same one I and millions of others promote...the true one.
Justification through faith alone in Christ alone, through the subsequent new birth.
Our works have no part in that. Our fruitfullness, or lack thereof, is of course important. It effects our effectiveness as a witness, our being spared Gods discipline, and can cause a loss of rewards in heaven.
But it plays (((ZERO))) part in our justification.
That is why it is such a monsterous insult and slap in the face of God to say that if we die while commiting some sin, we go to hell. That sin, whatever it might be, was atoned for 2000 years ago on the cross. Christ took that sin upon Himself to spare us the condemnation that would have been ours.
God has cursed any gospel of works and it grieves Him mightilly to see His children promoting something that He curses.
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
If millions are promoting the gospel that says 1 John 2:3,4 is not speaking of the Ten Commandments as DHK stated, I am afraid many (just as the Bible said) are heading down the wrong road.
To say it is a monstrous insult and slap in the face of God when we say that the tree has revealed its true nature is wrong. Au Contrair, it is a monstrous insult and slap in the face of God to say that no matter what sin one commits they are assured of missing hell. One who says you can sin and still be in heaven is setting oneself up as God.
Last edited by a moderator:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
D28Guy: That is why it is such a monsterous insult and slap in the face of God to say that if we die while commiting some sin, we go to hell. That sin, whatever it might be, was atoned for 2000 years ago on the cross. Christ took that sin upon Himself to spare us the condemnation that would have been ours.
HP: This is a complete misconstruing of the facts. The atonement in no way covers for any sins that are not repented of and forsaken, regardless who commits them. God is no respecter of persons. There can be no greater injustice for God to sentence some to hell for committing certain acts while granting a blanket pardon for others to do the same with impunity.
The atonement satisfies God’s demand in relationship to the law, and makes the way for the ‘possibility’ of forgiveness, but in no way fulfills the commands that God said each one must do in order to receive forgiveness, i.e. repent and exercise faith. The fact of Christ dying on the cross in no way makes that atonement, in and if itself, effective in our lives. Only as we fulfill the conditions God has mandated to make the atonement effective in our individuals lives is salvation consummated on our behalf.
I read all liarsClaudia_T said:'Splain! this to me?
Revelation 21
7: He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If I look hard enough I can find a lie, even on this board. It probably would be in the form of a false accusation, or misquoting someone, but still a lie nevertheless.
How many murders does it take to be a murderer?
How many "affairs" does it take to be an adulterer?
How many lies does it take to be a liar?
Just one
Let God be true, but every man a liar (Romans 3:4)
Those are God's words; not mine. Thus you are a liar according to God's Word.
What are you going to do about that? You are included in that list along with the adulterers, murderers, and idolaters. You are just as sinful as the rest of them. Why"
Because sin is defined by God as "a transgression of the law (1John 3:4).
You have transgressed the law of God. God counts all sin as the same. Any sin, no matter what it is, is big enough to send you to Hell. It doesn't matter if it is adultery or lying. It will send you to Hell, unconfessed or not.
The only remedy for that sin is God' gift of eternal life given on the basis of the shed blood of Jesus Christ. He paid the penalty for those sins when he atoned for them on the cross. It is finished he said. He paid for them with his blood once and for all. It was his grace. All we need to do is accept that gift by faith and faith alone, and our sins are atoned for--past, present and future.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
DHK: Let God be true, but every man a liar (Romans 3:4)
Those are God's words; not mine. Thus you are a liar according to God's Word.
HP: That is simply not the case. That verse does NOT say that all are liars, but that if in fact man’s word pits itself against God’s Word, it is man’s word that is in error. It says that if man’s word contradicts God’s Word, then it is God’s Word to be believed and not man’s.
Diggin in da Word
New Member
DHK said:I read all liars
If I look hard enough I can find a lie, even on this board. It probably would be in the form of a false accusation, or misquoting someone, but still a lie nevertheless.
How many murders does it take to be a murderer?
How many "affairs" does it take to be an adulterer?
How many lies does it take to be a liar?
Just one
Let God be true, but every man a liar (Romans 3:4)
Those are God's words; not mine. Thus you are a liar according to God's Word.
What are you going to do about that? You are included in that list along with the adulterers, murderers, and idolaters. You are just as sinful as the rest of them. Why"
Because sin is defined by God as "a transgression of the law (1John 3:4).
You have transgressed the law of God. God counts all sin as the same. Any sin, no matter what it is, is big enough to send you to Hell. It doesn't matter if it is adultery or lying. It will send you to Hell, unconfessed or not.
The only remedy for that sin is God' gift of eternal life given on the basis of the shed blood of Jesus Christ. He paid the penalty for those sins when he atoned for them on the cross. It is finished he said. He paid for them with his blood once and for all. It was his grace. All we need to do is accept that gift by faith and faith alone, and our sins are atoned for--past, present and future.
It is more than just accepting the gift of eternal life. One must be repentant. If one is not repentant, the gift is not given. Otherwise, God becomes a liar Himself. For His word says He is not a respector of persons. He is sending some unrepentant souls to heaven and some to hell. No, one must repent or they will perish.
Last edited by a moderator:
Brother Bob
New Member
DHK: Let God be true, but every man a liar (Romans 3:4)
Those are God's words; not mine. Thus you are a liar according to God's Word.
HP: That is simply not the case. That verse does NOT say that all are liars, but that if in fact man’s word pits itself against God’s Word, it is man’s word that is in error. It says that if man’s word contradicts God’s Word, then it is God’s Word to be believed and not man’s.
Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If it were true that all men are liars then it was a waste of time building mansions in heaven for the scriptures says all liars are going to the Lake and the second death.
We can cherry pick all day and never get it right. Sure glad that God is the judge of us all.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
DIDW: It is more than just accepting the gift of eternal life. One must be repentant. If one is not repentant, the gift is not given. Otherwise, God becomes a liar Himself. For His word says He is not a respector of persons. He is sending some unrepentant souls to heaven and some to hell. No, one must repent or they will perish.
HP: Now here is an individual that has his salvation straight.
If you study your Bible you will find that the NT concept of "believe" or "faith" includes that of repentance.Diggin in da Word said:It is more than just accepting the gift of eternal life. One must be repentant. If one is not repentant, the gift is not given. Otherwise, God becomes a liar Himself. For His word says He is not a respector of persons. He is sending some unrepentant souls to heaven and some to hell. No, one must repent or they will perish.
It is the Church of Christ that demands a five step program of "works" in order to be saved. It seems like you are doing the same: faith + repentance + confession + belief + baptism = salvation. If you don't have all five of these "works" you cannot be saved. Of course they don't call them works but it is the same thing. You are making "repentance" into a work, and thus have a works based salvation like the Church of Christ. We are saved by faith alone. Study Eph.2:8,9 along with Acts 16:30,31; Acts 10:43; Rom.5:1; John 3:16,17; 36; 1John 5:11,12; John 20:21; John 5:24; for starters. After you study those carefully I will give you some more.
I know that. You may know that. But how does Brother Bob and Claudia reconcile this verse to unconfessed sin. They believe that anyone having unconfessed before death will not enter into heaven. Accordingly this verse then must apply to them. I want to see how they reconcile this verse to their theology.Heavenly Pilgrim said:HP: That is simply not the case. That verse does NOT say that all are liars, but that if in fact man’s word pits itself against God’s Word, it is man’s word that is in error. It says that if man’s word contradicts God’s Word, then it is God’s Word to be believed and not man’s.
Brother Bob
New Member
No, I think we believe. Well let me speak for my self.
1. faith/belief which comes repentance
2. Holy Ghost baptism then we are saved.
because of that then we move on and go home and tell our friends what good thing the Lord has done for us.
3. Tell the church and be baptized in the water for fellowship here on earth.
1. faith/belief which comes repentance
2. Holy Ghost baptism then we are saved.
because of that then we move on and go home and tell our friends what good thing the Lord has done for us.
3. Tell the church and be baptized in the water for fellowship here on earth.
So get it right then!Brother Bob said:Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If it were true that all men are liars then it was a waste of time building mansions in heaven for the scriptures says all liars are going to the Lake and the second death.
We can cherry pick all day and never get it right. Sure glad that God is the judge of us all.
It does say that all men are liars.
It does say that all liars are going to hell.
Reconcile the two verses.
Brother Bob
New Member
I don't get your meaning. I go mostly along the lines of HP. I think we differ a little on sin but not much.Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP: That is simply not the case. That verse does NOT say that all are liars, but that if in fact man’s word pits itself against God’s Word, it is man’s word that is in error. It says that if man’s word contradicts God’s Word, then it is God’s Word to be believed and not man’s.
I know that. You may know that. But how does Brother Bob and Claudia reconcile this verse to unconfessed sin. They believe that anyone having unconfessed before death will not enter into heaven. Accordingly this verse then must apply to them. I want to see how they reconcile this verse to their theology.__________________
DHK
The way I get through that scripture is to accept it and not call God a liar.
Heavenly Pilgrim,
"The Lord has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all"
Christs payment of our sin debt has nothing to do with our ability or willingness to repent. Our repenting of sins is part of our "putting on the new man" and "putting off the new man". And there is abundant scriptural teaching concerning the negative consequences of our problems in that area.
But concerning our eternal rightstanding with God, that was accomplished 2000 years ago when every sin we have ever, will ever, or ARE commiting was placed upon Christ and He took the death penalty that would have been ours.
He took ALL of our sins. Past, present, furtue, repented of, not yet repented of. ALL of them.
I agree completly
No sinning christian is going to miss the consequences of sin. Chastisement, loss of rewards, diminished effectivness as a witness, etc.
You have just proclaimed the false gospel of works that God has cursed.
The word of God...
"Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us (past tense, 2000 years ago) to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us (past tense, 2000 years ago) from the power of darkness and translated us (past tense, 2000 years ago) into the kingdom of the Son of His love. In whom we have redemption (past tense, 2000 years ago) through His blood, the forgivness of sins." (past tense, 2000 years ago)
Again here you have just promoted the false gospel of works that God has placed His curse on.
"It is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast."
All of our sins...past, present, and future.
"For we are HIs worsmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
Isnt God great! :thumbs: Not only has the sin problem been completly taken care of 2000 years ago, but the new life we are given was also initiated 2000 years ago!
Grace and peace,
Mike
"HP: This is a complete misconstruing of the facts. The atonement in no way covers for any sins that are not repented of and forsaken, regardless who commits them."
"The Lord has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all"
Christs payment of our sin debt has nothing to do with our ability or willingness to repent. Our repenting of sins is part of our "putting on the new man" and "putting off the new man". And there is abundant scriptural teaching concerning the negative consequences of our problems in that area.
But concerning our eternal rightstanding with God, that was accomplished 2000 years ago when every sin we have ever, will ever, or ARE commiting was placed upon Christ and He took the death penalty that would have been ours.
He took ALL of our sins. Past, present, furtue, repented of, not yet repented of. ALL of them.
"God is no respecter of persons."
I agree completly
"There can be no greater injustice for God to sentence some to hell for committing certain acts while granting a blanket pardon for others to do the same with impunity."
No sinning christian is going to miss the consequences of sin. Chastisement, loss of rewards, diminished effectivness as a witness, etc.
"The atonement satisfies God’s demand in relationship to the law, and makes the way for the ‘possibility’ of forgiveness, but in no way fulfills the commands that God said each one must do in order to receive forgiveness, i.e. repent and exercise faith."
You have just proclaimed the false gospel of works that God has cursed.
The word of God...
"Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us (past tense, 2000 years ago) to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us (past tense, 2000 years ago) from the power of darkness and translated us (past tense, 2000 years ago) into the kingdom of the Son of His love. In whom we have redemption (past tense, 2000 years ago) through His blood, the forgivness of sins." (past tense, 2000 years ago)
"The fact of Christ dying on the cross in no way makes that atonement, in and if itself, effective in our lives. Only as we fulfill the conditions God has mandated to make the atonement effective in our individuals lives is salvation consummated on our behalf.
Again here you have just promoted the false gospel of works that God has placed His curse on.
"It is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast."
All of our sins...past, present, and future.
"For we are HIs worsmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
Isnt God great! :thumbs: Not only has the sin problem been completly taken care of 2000 years ago, but the new life we are given was also initiated 2000 years ago!
Grace and peace,
Mike
Brother Bob
New Member
I got it right, it says all men are liars if we confront God and say he is wrong and we are right. Certainly not the way you put it or we all Hell bound.So get it right then!
It does say that all men are liars.
It does say that all liars are going to hell.
Reconcile the two verses.__________________
DHK
Brother Bob
New Member
Do that mean we can all party now??Isnt God great! :thumbs: Not only has the sin problem been completly taken care of 2000 years ago, but the new life we are given was also initiated 2000 years ago!
Diggin in da Word
New Member
Jesus told the Jews, 'except ye also repent, ye shall likewise perish.'
Why did He not simply say 'Just believe in me and you won't perish'?
The word 'Repent' is found 22 times in the New Testament.
The word 'Repentance' 25 times.
The word 'Repented' 15 times.
Jesus Himself preached repentance. If it is not repentance from sin and turning to God, what is the repentance Christ was teaching.
And repentance is not believing as one would suppose, for even Jesus Himself said, 'Repent and believe the gospel' (Mark 1:14,15). He did not say 'repent and you will have believed', nor did He say 'believe and you will have repented'.
No, He said 'Repent and Believe...'.
Why did He not simply say 'Just believe in me and you won't perish'?
The word 'Repent' is found 22 times in the New Testament.
The word 'Repentance' 25 times.
The word 'Repented' 15 times.
Jesus Himself preached repentance. If it is not repentance from sin and turning to God, what is the repentance Christ was teaching.
And repentance is not believing as one would suppose, for even Jesus Himself said, 'Repent and believe the gospel' (Mark 1:14,15). He did not say 'repent and you will have believed', nor did He say 'believe and you will have repented'.
No, He said 'Repent and Believe...'.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
DHK: You are making "repentance" into a work, and thus have a works based salvation like the Church of Christ.
HP: For all of you nay sayers out there that have stated (or thought)in the past that it is just not so, here DHK demonstrates it in plain English. I have had more than one Calvinist minister tell me that if I believed that one must repent in order to be saved I believe in salvation by works. I have had some say that they had never heard anyone say it like that. Well, now you have.
What is the purpose of your thread?
El_Guero said:You quote Scripture about being sinless. You then challenge people to support your premise, then you try to twist your premise around.
Then you gave a singular reason for Christ coming . . . then you changed to two reasons . . . now you are talking about switching the light for darkness.
Were are you going with your OP?
What is your purpose?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.