Under Grace or Under Law?

[El_Guero]

I asked a legitimate question because your responses in your thread did not make sense.

Your response with rudeness only obscured your intent. And I must assume that your intent was less than honorable. Therefore, I do not care what your intent was.

See ya'.

Me? I dont even know what you are talking about... why not just participate in it or go to another one?

 

[DHK]

Your above post about my prayers was slander.

No it wasn't. It was an example or an illustration. I wasn't saying that those are the exact words that you pray. I was demonstrating you theology through that prayer, as Claudia picked up on when she said: "I can see how you would think that way." (or something to that effect.
I was demonstrating your thelogy, not quoting anything you said. I think that everyone realized that.

 

[Brother Bob]

I thought it was a mockery myself for you included me in it also.

 

[Claudia_T]

I asked a legitimate question because your responses in your thread did not make sense.

Your response with rudeness only obscured your intent. And I must assume that your intent was less than honorable. Therefore, I do not care what your intent was.

See ya'.

ok thanks for sharing. you have done this on more than one of my threads.

 

[Claudia_T]

I asked a legitimate question because your responses in your thread did not make sense.

Your response with rudeness only obscured your intent. And I must assume that your intent was less than honorable. Therefore, I do not care what your intent was.

See ya'.

well I dont know my response couldve been rude maybe.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

No it wasn't. It was an example or an illustration. I wasn't saying that those are the exact words that you pray. I was demonstrating you theology through that prayer, as Claudia picked up on when she said: "I can see how you would think that way." (or something to that effect.
I was demonstrating your thelogy, not quoting anything you said. I think that everyone realized that.

illustration or no, it was slander. Here is what you said:

Originally Posted by DHK
Here is what I get from you (and possibly from Claudia and Brother Bob)
This would be a typical prayer coming from your lips:

Dear Jesus,
I know that you have died for my sins, and paid the penalty for my sins at the cross. I realize that you shed your blood for me. And I am so thankful for what you accomplished for me at the cross. But Lord it was not good enough for me. I want a piece of the action too. Even though in Eph.2:8,9 Paul told us that salvation is all of grace so that we couldn't boast about it, I want to boast about my salvation in heaven. So I am putting one condition on my salvation. You see, you died for all my sins, except one. That last sin, just before I die, you didn't have enough blood to cover that one Lord. I have to pay for that one myself. Now I am willing to take the consequences. If I don't confess that one I am willing to go to Hell. But on that one sin Lord, it is I who must confess the sin. I must do that work to enter into heaven. That is the one work that I must do. Your sacrifice on the cross can't cover that last sin. I must pay the penalty for it myself. It must be confessed by me. It is my work. In that way, I will be able to boast a bit in heaven, and say to others: See how I paid for my own salvation. I helped Jesus. He didn't pay the entire sacrifice Himself. I had to help him along. I paid for the last sin. He couldn't do it. See how great I am. Thank you Jesus for this opportunity for helping you in your great work of salvation,

In His name,
Diggin

The fact that you said this would be a typical prayer coming from my lips is indeed a slander. Should I report this abuse and provocation to the board?

 

[DHK]

I didn't say those words as my theology DHK, you did. You say I am using your words against you but it by our words you know us. A man word is his bond and you use mine against me all the time. You used worse than that against me but I am trying to move on and debate you. I don't believe as you do that you can continue in those kinds of sin and be saved. To me it is like walking on the blood of our Lord. If you will think you will see that what you say is come and be saved and you can do whatever you want and never lose your salvation. Well, if anyone comes with that attitude they will never get in.

Yes one can continue to sin, as we all do, and still be saved at the same time. How long have you been saved? I can't remember exactly, but it is a good number of years, iright. In that time period you have sinned many times, correct? As a God-fearing Christian you take those sins and confess them to the Lord in order to restore fellowship with Him.
This is the teaching in 1John 1:8,9

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
--The person who says that they have not sinned at all has taken a heretical position, and there is no truth in him. We all have sinned. The question is: What do we do with that sin? The answer is given in the next verse.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--If it were possible to live a life without sin, this verse would not be in the Bible. But it is in the Bible. We sin, and are commanded to confess our sin to the Lord. He in turn will forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This does not apply to unbelievers. It is a verse solely written to believers, those that are "iin Christ." Notice that John writes "If we." He includes himself in this verse. John the beloved Apostle is admitting that he is a sinner.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
--The John emphasizes again that the person who says that he has no need for forgiveness, for restored fellowship with God because he does not sin, does not have God's Word in him, and he makes Christ a liar. That is a serious charge.
Thus we all are sinners; we all sin. There is no way around this teaching.

The goal of the Christian is not to sin. I agree with that. We do not have a licence to sin. I never said that. Christ comes and indwells the believer at the time of salvation and changes us. But the old nature is still there. The desire to sin is still there. John goes on in chapter two:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
--What is God's will for your life? The answer is that you sin not.
But look what he says. He puts an exception clause in there. If anyone does sin. Why is that included if no one would sin after salvation. The reason, of course, is that every beleiver does sin after salvation. Thus when we do sin, we take our sin to Christ, our Advocate, and we get forgiveness.
Verse two says that He is the propitiation for our sins. What does that mean? It means that he paid the penalty for our sins, once and for all on the cross. They are under the blood to be remembered no more. Satisfaction was made as a legal payment to God. In that sense he stands before God as our lawyer (advocate), presenting our case saying that our sins our paid for with his blood. There is nothing more to pay; nothing more to be done. The sinner's sin is already paid for with the blood of Christ. Yes, he is our advocate, standing before God, demonstratiing the payment for the penalty of our sins with the marks in his body still being there. He is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world.

Thus if (suppose) I were to die suddenly with unconfessed sin in my life, that sin is covered by the blood of Christ. He has already atoned for it. The penalty has been paid. My advocate stands before God demonstrating that very fact.

 

[DHK]

illustration or no, it was slander. Here is what you said:

The fact that you said this would be a typical prayer coming from my lips is indeed a slander. Should I report this abuse and provocation to the board?

Go right ahead.
Look at the words:
"This is what I get from you." (not this is what you said)
Secondly I also said (and possibly Brother Bob and Claudia)
How could these words be limited to you if I mentioned them as well?
Third, I said it would be a "typical" prayer not an exactly worded prayer. It was something to demonstrate your theology.
Your complaint is frivilous.

 

[Claudia_T]

DHK,

Im not trying to speak for anyone else but Im thinking maybe they are going on the idea of where it says "IF we confess our sins, He is just and faithful to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness" and Im thinking they dont view that as a one time thing.

so therefore if there is unconfessed sin it wouldnt matter if you had an Advocate since you hadnt called upon Him by confessing.

 

[Claudia_T]

DHK,

When you said that prayer you think we might all say, you said that we pray about that we didnt something instead of God... and take credit for it (cannot recall exact words you used)... but I said I see it all as more conditional...

thats what I meant by that... the Bible says IF we confess our sins [then] He is just and faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I see myself at least as trying to comply with the conditions set down by God in the Bible, rather than me trying to somehow take credit for my salvation.

Because to me it is saying that IF we DONT do that then we cannot expect to receive what God says He wants to give us. and so its God indeed giving it to us but only under HIS specified conditions.


Claudia

 

[DHK]

DHK,

Im not trying to speak for anyone else but Im thinking maybe they are going on the idea of where it says "IF we confess our sins, He is just and faithful to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness" and Im thinking they dont view that as a one time thing.

so therefore if there is unconfessed sin it wouldnt matter if you had an Advocate since you hadnt called upon Him by confessing.

I don't veiw it as a one time thing either. The true believer must come to Christ every day, confess his sin every day in order to maintain a right relationship with the Lord.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The Bible is clear...

We must repent, confess and believe. If we do not, we could take credit for our salvation. One would besaying just as Frank Sinatra sang, 'I did it my way.

Repentance, confession, and believing are all commanded in the Word of God.... whether some want to deny it or not.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

I see myself at least as trying to comply with the conditions set down by God in the Bible, rather than me trying to somehow take credit for my salvation.

Because to me it is saying that IF we DONT do that then we cannot expect to receive what God says He wants to give us. and so its God indeed giving it to us but only under HIS specified conditions.

Claudia

1John 1:9 is written to beleivers only. It is speakiing about our fellowship with God, and has nothing to do with out salvation. When I am born again I become a child of God. If I sin, sin separates me from God, just as sin separates my daughter from me until she makes things right. But I don't cast her out of my family. Neither does God cast us out of his. In both cases fellowship is restored.
As far as salvation is concerned, we can never lose it. My daughter will always be my daughter; and I will always be a child of God. There is nothing that can destroy that relationship. Not even sin. I am his child. Romans 8:38,39--Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

 

[Claudia_T]

I don't veiw it as a one time thing either. The true believer must come to Christ every day, confess his sin every day in order to maintain a right relationship with the Lord.

Okay not that you actually spelled this out but I noticed you said "sin" instead of "sins". So do you see it as confessing that you are a "sinner" rather than confessing individual sins?


Claudia

 

[DHK]

The Bible is clear...

We must repent, confess and believe. If we do not, we could take credit for our salvation. One would besaying just as Frank Sinatra sang, 'I did it my way.

Repentance, confession, and believing are all commanded in the Word of God.... whether some want to deny it or not.

Are you Church of Christ?

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
I didn't say those words as my theology DHK, you did. You say I am using your words against you but it by our words you know us. A man word is his bond and you use mine against me all the time. You used worse than that against me but I am trying to move on and debate you. I don't believe as you do that you can continue in those kinds of sin and be saved. To me it is like walking on the blood of our Lord. If you will think you will see that what you say is come and be saved and you can do whatever you want and never lose your salvation. Well, if anyone comes with that attitude they will never get in.
Yes one can continue to sin, as we all do, and still be saved at the same time. How long have you been saved? I can't remember exactly, but it is a good number of years, iright. In that time period you have sinned many times, correct? As a God-fearing Christian you take those sins and confess them to the Lord in order to restore fellowship with Him.
This is the teaching in 1John 1:8,9

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
--The person who says that they have not sinned at all has taken a heretical position, and there is no truth in him. We all have sinned. The question is: What do we do with that sin? The answer is given in the next verse.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--If it were possible to live a life without sin, this verse would not be in the Bible. But it is in the Bible. We sin, and are commanded to confess our sin to the Lord. He in turn will forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This does not apply to unbelievers. It is a verse solely written to believers, those that are "iin Christ." Notice that John writes "If we." He includes himself in this verse. John the beloved Apostle is admitting that he is a sinner.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
--The John emphasizes again that the person who says that he has no need for forgiveness, for restored fellowship with God because he does not sin, does not have God's Word in him, and he makes Christ a liar. That is a serious charge.
Thus we all are sinners; we all sin. There is no way around this teaching.

The goal of the Christian is not to sin. I agree with that. We do not have a licence to sin. I never said that. Christ comes and indwells the believer at the time of salvation and changes us. But the old nature is still there. The desire to sin is still there. John goes on in chapter two:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
--What is God's will for your life? The answer is that you sin not.
But look what he says. He puts an exception clause in there. If anyone does sin. Why is that included if no one would sin after salvation. The reason, of course, is that every beleiver does sin after salvation. Thus when we do sin, we take our sin to Christ, our Advocate, and we get forgiveness.
Verse two says that He is the propitiation for our sins. What does that mean? It means that he paid the penalty for our sins, once and for all on the cross. They are under the blood to be remembered no more. Satisfaction was made as a legal payment to God. In that sense he stands before God as our lawyer (advocate), presenting our case saying that our sins our paid for with his blood. There is nothing more to pay; nothing more to be done. The sinner's sin is already paid for with the blood of Christ. Yes, he is our advocate, standing before God, demonstratiing the payment for the penalty of our sins with the marks in his body still being there. He is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world.

Thus if (suppose) I were to die suddenly with unconfessed sin in my life, that sin is covered by the blood of Christ. He has already atoned for it. The penalty has been paid. My advocate stands before God demonstrating that very fact.__________________
DHK

There are other scriptures and we must reconcile them. If you can't then don't accuse others.

1 John, chapter 2
1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

If we say we know Him and keep not His Commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.

verses

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(Yes, I have sinned and the below scripture covers it)
1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Rom 6:16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Why can't you get past all sin are the same. No wonder you can't keep from sinning. You think if you let off steam you sin. I wouldn't want to live your life.

 

[DHK]

Okay not that you actually spelled this out but I noticed you said "sin" instead of "sins". So do you see it as confessing that you are a "sinner" rather than confessing individual sins?

Claudia

I often use the two words interchangeably unless there is a reason to use "sins" specifically. Sin used in a generic manner includes the idea of sins.
If we confess our sins plural (or sin generically) on a daily basis, we should be able to list them one by one.
But when it comes to a person being saved this is an impossibility. No where in the Bible does it teach that we must repent of all our sins in order to be saved. No one can do that. We can barely remember the sins we have committed on this one day let alone all the sins we have committed during a lifetime, that we should be able to repent of all of them one by one. That is an unscriptural concept.

 

[Claudia_T]

I often use the two words interchangeably unless there is a reason to use "sins" specifically. Sin used in a generic manner includes the idea of sins.
If we confess our sins plural (or sin generically) on a daily basis, we should be able to list them one by one.
But when it comes to a person being saved this is an impossibility. No where in the Bible does it teach that we must repent of all our sins in order to be saved. No one can do that. We can barely remember the sins we have committed on this one day let alone all the sins we have committed during a lifetime, that we should be able to repent of all of them one by one. That is an unscriptural concept.

Okay I just was thinking maybe that was part of the problem is that some view it as you have to confess a specific sin such as adultery before they die... and others just see it as a confession of overall "sin" for the day.

actually now that I think about it the Publican did say "God have mercy on me, a sinner" (cant recall his exact words) it was like an overall confession of sin it seemed.

 

[DHK]

Why can't you get past all sin are the same.

Because all sins are the same; a fact you won't accept.
All sin is a transgression of the law (1John 3:4). Why won't you believe the Scriptures?

 

[Brother Bob]

We must repent, confess and believe. Yes we Church of Christ. Only one I know of.