Under Grace or Under Law?

[Brother Bob]

What stuns me Diggin is the fact that is even a question. I hear a lot of things on here and some of them I just have never heard and this is one of them. The whole Bible is about repenting.

cya tomorrow, bedtime for the old man.

 

[EdSutton]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It was of the grace of God that Christ provided us salvation. Salvation is all of grace.
It is by faith and faith alone by which we are saved. Salvation is by faith. We see that through dozens of Scripture throughout the NT.
What happens to repentance then? Repentance is included in faith. It is a part of faith. You can't have faith without having repentance.
Repentance is not feeling sorry for your sins.
Repentance is not listing all your sins and individually repenting of each win. Those two concepts are wrong, and not found in Scripture.

Repentance is a change of mind. It is a change of mind with respect to my attitude to God. Once I was rebellious to God. Then I got saved, and my mind is now changed towared God. I am now willing to submit to God, instead of rebel against him. Repentance is a change of mind in my attitude toward God. I have changed. My attitude toward my past sinful life has changed. I don't want that life any more. "There's been a great change since I've been born again." My goal now is to be holy, as God is holy." That is a change of mind--repentance.

Thus faith includes repentance. We are not like the Church of Christ and have many single "works" like faith + repentance + belief + confession + baptism = salvation. This is salvation by works.

At the risk of being called one who is getting on the bandwagon, although I have understood, believed and taught this for over 35 years, I would say that DHK has "hit the nail dead center with his head", here. This is exactly what Scripture teaches.

Please read this carefully, folks. Sin is not the problem, anymore, although the lost, who do not believe in Jesus, will die still under the penalty of the sin that has already been atoned for. (Jn. 8:24)

The spotless Lamb of God shed his precious blood on Mt. Moriah to take care of the sin problem, once and for all time. He took away our sins. (Heb. 9:28; 10:10-14)
He took away "sin", in that He was made to be sin for us, and does not impute it to us. (II Cor. 5:19-21; Heb. 7:27; 9:26)

He, Himself, made and His blood is, the propitiation (the blood covering on the heavenly 'Mercy Seat') before God, for not only those who believe, but also the wholeworld. (Heb. 2:17; I Jn. 2:2)

He was nailed to the cross for our sins, and redeemed us by becoming a curse in our place. (Deut. 21:23; Gal. 3:13)

And while He was there He Himself nailed something else to the cross, namely the Mosaic Law as contained in the handwriting of commandments and ordinances or statutes (Deut. numerous times; Eph. 2:14-15; Col. 2:15), thereby abolishing that enmity between God and man.

The only thing left is what he declares, in order to be saved: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." By grace, through faith. (Rom. 4:1-16; Eph. 2: 4-16)

And one cannot mix works with grace, no matter how well intentioned, for they are opposites, in salvation. (Rom. 11:6).
Scripture tells us that our salvation is based on 'believe' or 'faith': one the verb- the other the noun; over 200 times. John's gospel uses believe 99 times alone.
John is the only book in the Bible declared to be written for the express purpose of salvation. (Jn. 20:31)
And I John is the only book that declares itself to be written for the express purpose of assurance or 'knowing'. (I Jn. 5: 9-13)

Frankly, I think they have it right!

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: Frankly, I think they have it right!

HP: Sorry Ed, you missed it this time. Conditions of salvation do not equate to a works based salvation. That is a paper duck of your own imagination.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed, Go back and read post #277. I would like to hear your response as if it was written to you. We shall see if your bandwagon has wheels or square blocks for locomotion.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

As I am sure DHK is crying before the board that I attacked him and should thus be banned, I am hereby stating that the administrators should dole out the same punishment for him as he thinks I should receive. Just as Haman was hanged on his own gallows he had intended for Mordechai, DHK is building gallows for me for rules that he as a moderator should have observed himself.

DHK attacked me first with accusations of 'presumptious and arrogant' When I show he is presumptious and arrogant, he begins to pout and cry foul play.

If a ban is necessary for me, it should also be applied to DHK as he attacked me first.

 

[EdSutton]

HP: In light of the slick roads in your neck of the woods, I am compelled to admonish you about... 'stretching the truth.' :smilewinkgrin:

I guess I should have said "hurry". Our roads are in fact, bone dry, around here, although there might be some little bit of frost on them in the morning. But not tonight. We actually got very little of the rain that many areas got, and no snow to 'stick', either, save a few flakes this morning on the grass.

Granted, "running" is not something I do a lot, at 58 years old, 240#, and following surgery, and with some arthritis, to boot! :laugh:

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: Our roads are in fact, bone dry, around here

HP: Sorry Ed. That certainly was simply an honest mistake I committed. I should have looked at the weather map closely.

 

[EdSutton]

Scripture does indeed tell us to repent of our sins. You quoted the verse earlier. Ezekiel 18:30 tells us to 'repent and turn yourselves from all your transgressions...' Since the Bible defines sin as the transgression of the Law, Ezekiel 18 does indeed tell us to repent of all our sins.

You might look at this verse a bit more carefully. In fact, even here 'repent' although I guess one could call it 'linked' is different from "turn from you all your sins". That is what and means. It's a connecting link of two different things. That is basic language. a good parallel verse would be since 'turn' (shub -Heb.) is akin to "be turned/be converted" (epistrephO - Gk.) (which BTW, is usually in the passive voice in the NT, as opposed to something one "does") is found in Acts 3:19 viz. "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."
'Repent' and 'be converted' are similarly 'linked' although different things, even to the voice used.The question of DHK and myself still stands. My own words were that the words "repent of/from (your) sins" are not to be found in Scripture.

As to "repent" referring to sins, one might note that the only individual in the OT said to "repent" is Job. Yet God is said to repent or to not repent over 30 times.

If you want to 'accuse' God of sin, or link Him to sin, be my guest.

Me? I definitely ain't a-goin' there!

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Ed, Go back and read post #277. I would like to hear your response as if it was written to you. We shall see if your bandwagon has wheels or square blocks for locomotion.

Since post 277 has nothing I have written, I don't see the point. There are, in fact, some things I would not say, in the quoted post of DHK, and little in your response that pertains to what I have written. That is not an avoidance, merely fact.

FTR, neither the words "repentant' and/or "unrepentant" (you and DHK notwithstanding) are found anywhere in Scripture, in the KJV, RV, or ASV. I cannot speak about any other versions.

I, like some trains in KY, the last two days, run on my own track, and if I derail, and burn, it is because of me and me, alone. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The question of DHK and myself still stands.

I agree, the question of you and DHK still stands... especially if you agree with him that we can die in sin and be accepted in heaven.

Before this is misconstrued, I did not say I question your salvation in this post. I question your denying the Word.

 

[EdSutton]

I agree, the question of you and DHK still stands... especially if you agree with him that we can die in sin and be accepted in heaven.

Before this is misconstrued, I did not say I question your salvation in this post. I question your denying the Word.

As to the last part, here, which part am I supposedly denying? I am merely the one asking where the words "repent of/from (one's) sin(s)" are ever to be found in Scripture.

Obviously, I am not the only one that can derail.

Ed

P.S. Since in over 2000 posts, I have never claimed anyone has questioned my salvation, whether or not they have, for I don't really care about that, and have no intention of starting now, this part would seem to be moot, as well. :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

I agree, the question of you and DHK still stands... especially if you agree with him that we can die in sin and be accepted in heaven.

Before this is misconstrued, I did not say I question your salvation in this post. I question your denying the Word.

James Gray wrote:
Only a sinner, saved by grace!
Only a sinner, saved by grace!
This is my story, to God be the glory—
I’m only a sinner, saved by grace!

He knew the truth about salvation.
He realized that even though he was saved he was still a sinner. This is one of the most important facts that one must accept as a Christian. Your sin is not eradicated just because you are saved. You are still a vile sinful person, as we all are. Being in that condition, you could die at any time for any reason: whether it be heart attack, terrorist attack, car accident, or whatever. Death can come suddenly. We are sinners; sinners saved by grace, yest; but sinners nevertheless. And unless you can cliam to be as holy as God is you will not enter into heaven at the point of death when you die unless you believe that the blood of Christ is sufficient enough to atone for all your sins, and has atoned for all your sins, including those that you have not confessed.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

And if I commit a willfull sin and do not repent and turn from that sin, I deserve hell and will get it... as will any who do not repent and turn.

As the bumper sticker I once saw said... Turn or Burn!

One cannot eat from the table of the Lord and drink of the cup of the devil at the same time. Paul clearly told us that.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Your sin is not eradicated just because you are saved.

BUZZZZZ!!!! Wrong!!!!

When one accepts Christ as Lord and Master, one's sins are eradicated. Micah 7:19 tells us those sins are cast in the sea never to be remembered anymore against us.

It is the sin nature that is not eradicated, my friend (yes, I did say friend). But, just because the sin nature is not eradicated does not mean we are still sinners, or should I say have to sin?

If we are truly submitted to God, we can resist the devil and the temptations that are set before us. Over and over we are told to submit, follow, continue...

But we are warned that if we do not abide in Him, we will be cut off and cast into the fire.

Now, I am not talking sinless perfection here. What I am saying is when and if we do sin, we should feel convicted. If one who claims to be of Christ can sin with no conviction whatsoever, that one is deceiving himself.

Ezekiel spoke of the righteous forsaking their righteousness and turning to wickedness and abominations. Many who think they are saved because of righteous acts will eventually reveal who they truly are. The child of God when sin arises, will turn from that sin and back to God.

 

[DHK]

And if I commit a willfull sin and do not repent and turn from that sin, I deserve hell and will get it... as will any who do not repent and turn.

All sin is willful. To say otherwise is foolish. We sin because we choose to sin. You can't excuse yoursel and blame the devil, society or anyone else. You choose to sin. All sin is wilful.
Thus if your sin is condemning you to Hell perhaps you are not saved. Christ came to save us from our sin. He came to take the penalty of our sin upon himself. If he hasn't done that for you then are you saved?
When I trusted Christ as my Savior Christ did what he promised he would do. He forgave me from ALL my sins. If he hasn't done that for you then perhaps you aren't saved. Have you asked him to do that? He has promised to forgive all of our sins. He does not differentiate between big and little sins--confessed and unconfessed, near and far sins, etc.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

 

[DHK]

BUZZZZZ!!!! Wrong!!!!

When one accepts Christ as Lord and Master, one's sins are eradicated. Micah 7:19 tells us those sins are cast in the sea never to be remembered anymore against us.

It is the sin nature that is not eradicated, my friend (yes, I did say friend). But, just because the sin nature is not eradicated does not mean we are still sinners, or should I say have to sin?
.

Yes, that is what I had meant to say--sin nature is not eradicated. My apologies for not checking more carefully before posting.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

All sin is willful. To say otherwise is foolish. We sin because we choose to sin. You can't excuse yoursel and blame the devil, society or anyone else. You choose to sin. All sin is wilful.
Thus if your sin is condemning you to Hell perhaps you are not saved. Christ came to save us from our sin. He came to take the penalty of our sin upon himself. If he hasn't done that for you then are you saved?
When I trusted Christ as my Savior Christ did what he promised he would do. He forgave me from ALL my sins. If he hasn't done that for you then perhaps you aren't saved. Have you asked him to do that? He has promised to forgive all of our sins. He does not differentiate between big and little sins--confessed and unconfessed, near and far sins, etc.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

Not all sin is willfull, DHK. Sometimes we make statements that we are going to do something at a certain time and some unforseen circumstance keeps us from doing what we said. Have we intentionally lied? No, but we lied just the same.

I believe that is why the Word says we should say, 'If the Lord will, we will...'.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

There is much truth in the phrase you ended the post with.

'There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.'

But, the verse does not end there as the modern versions would have it. It continues...

'Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'

When that is left off, much is left open for anyone. I don't have to worry about condemnation because I am in Christ Jesus. Yet all along, the one quoting this can be living in adultery, thieving, or committing other sins thinking 'I made a profession of faith and so my salvation is secure.'

Very deceptive.

 

[DHK]

Not all sin is willfull, DHK. Sometimes we make statements that we are going to do something at a certain time and some unforseen circumstance keeps us from doing what we said. Have we intentionally lied? No, but we lied just the same.

I believe that is why the Word says we should say, 'If the Lord will, we will...'.

You can make up hypothetical cases if you wish; but the fact remains that we sin because we want to; we enjoy it; we have a depraved nature; we choose it; it is in our nature to do so; etc. It is not in our nature to "accidentally sin." That is almost an impossibility, and not worth arguing about. We are sinners. Sinners sin. And when one dies in a state of sin, then what?

 

[D28guy]

Brother Bob,

I said...

"
Isnt God great! :thumbs: Not only has the sin problem been completly taken care of 2000 years ago, but the new life we are given was also initiated 2000 years ago!"

And you said...

"Do that mean we can all party now??"

You better believe it. We are Spirit born children of the living God and completly secure in His love and eternally secure in His care. Because of that, at the place where I fellowship we have a party every Sunday, and usually every Saturday night.

Praise God!! \o/

Mike