Did this poster say Romans 9:11 indicates those chosen before they had done anything good or bad were chosen for salvation? If so, that is yet another rewrite.
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Understanding 2 Thessalonians 2:13
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Amen.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Respectfully Van,
I can understand my Saviour's words by reading them for myself.
Thank you for your effort ( and I know that it's a sincere one ), but it seems to me ( and has for the entire time that I've been on this forum ) that you really haven't read and understood what Paul is telling God's people:
" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
That they were, from the beginning of creation, chosen to salvation through their sanctification ( being set apart by God ) and through ( not "because of", which constitutes merit ) their belief of the truth.
That, sir, is the core of our disagreement...
The words.
I know what they say and have, since I first laid eyes on them over 20 years ago now, by God's grace, and I'm standing fast on them;
Not your explanation of them.
I have Him to explain to me what they mean ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).
May He bless you and show you many things in His mercy.
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Your post is correct concerning some Hyper-Calvinists, but Calvinists do not believe that anyone is saved before he believes. People may be elect from eternity, but they are saved when they believe. I'm a bit surprised that aftermaking what must be hundreds of posts on this forum, you don't know that. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' is in the Calvinist Bible as well as the Arminian version. It's just a pity that John 6:44 does appear to be in yours.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I have and you don't accept it. You just say I'm taking it out of context
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
It is just a pity that you still hold to the DoG/TULIP.
You can not have unconditional election/salvation and then say but we calvinists say we have to believe before we are saved.
There is only one "Elect One" and we are only elect when we are in Him.
It is surprising that you would refer to John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.
Eph 3:12 In Him and through faith in Him we may enter God’s presence with boldness and confidence.
Because of Christ's work and our union with Him, we now have the privilege of entering into God's presence at any time. If one is not united with Christ then they are lost and one is only united through faith not unto faith. Faith is the condition of salvation of being elect.
I wonder which text you are thinking of. Eph. 2:8 says that we are saved by grace through faith, 'and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.'
Faith is the instrumental means of our salvation; not the reason for it.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
God's grace is the instrumental means of our salvation; our faith is the reason He will save us.
Note what it says Martin: "we are saved by grace through faith"
Note what it says Martin: "we are saved by grace through faith"
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Christ and His Body are One Heb 2 11
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
So if Christ is elect so is His brethren
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You got the right BF but you are only His brethren if you have freely trust in the risen Christ.
Read what you quoted BF. When is a person sanctified? B4 or after they have believed?
You keep quoting verse that prove your theological view is wrong.
It's a pity that you still don't.No. 1 Peter 1:2. 'Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father......' What does that mean? Romans 8:29. 'For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be confirmed to the image of His Son.' Those God foreknew, He predestined to be in Christ, but we are not in Christ until we believe.
As God told Jeremiah, 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.' Jeremiah was not born in eternity, but God foreknew him and loved him in eternity. Therefore He drew him with lovingkindness (Jer. 31:3). "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations" (Jer. 1:5). To 'foreknow' someone means more than just being aware of someone in advance. To 'know' in the Bible often means to know with love, whether emotionally or physically. When God says through Amos, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2). Is this really saying that God was unaware of anyone else but Israelites? Of course not! It means that God had set His love upon Israel as part of His plan to bring salvation to millions.
Therefore to 'foreknow,' especially in the context of predestination to salvation, means to know with love, and that from eternity. So those who are elect according the the foreknowledge of God are those loved by God in eternity, given to Christ to redeem (John 6:39; 17:2, 24; 18:9), which He did on the cross. But we are not justified (declared righteous) until we believe (e.g. Rom. 5:1).
This is a non sequitur. Are you saying that Christ draws more people than God does?? John 6:44 makes no sense if John 12:32 says that the Lord Jesus will draw every single person to Him. What the verse says, of course, is that our Lord will draw Jews and Gentiles, men and women, rich and poor, slave and free (c.f. Rev. 7:9). 'All' does not always mean every single thing. 1 Tim. 6:10, NKJV (and all other modern versions I'm aware of): 'For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.' Money is clearly not the root of every single kind of evil (e.g. adultery, fornication, idolatry, murder).
I can agree with all that, I think.
Faith is, if you will, the condition of being justified, but election simply means that we are chosen in eternity to be justified by faith in time.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
False, theyre Christ brethren and children [of God] when they are born sinners. Thats why He is there kinsman Redeemer. The children took on flesh and blood in Adam and sinned, Christ came in the flesh to redeem them Heb 2:14,17
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people
His brethren were sinful and needed mercy !
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The pity is that you have. I have chosen to believe the word of God as written by the apostles but it seems you have chosen to believe the words of auguatine and calvin.
God can foreknow from eternity with love but that does not mean that you were chosen from eternity. Remember what John said "for God so loved the world"
You are reading elect from the foundation of the world into the text Martin. The one elect from the foundation was Christ and those that are in Him through faith are then the elect.
God has chosen too redeem the whole world Jon 3:17 "...but that the world through Him might be saved. " but has set the condition of one being redeemed as faith in the risen Christ. Rom 5:2 "...we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand,"
Well since Christ is God they draw the same amount, the whole world.
Only under your calvinist view would Jn 6:44 and Jn 12:32 not make any since. Just because someone is drawn does not mean they have to trust in God and we know from reality that not all do respond in faith.
Well since there are only men and women then we can conclude that God draws all.
There you go reading your calvinism into the text again.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The whole world of the children of God. Some of mankind are children of the devil, Christ isnt their kinsman redeemer. You think the devil and his seed are the children of God ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Only Israel the elect of God has been promised to redeem Ps 130 8
And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The choice of God is that all would be redeemed
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The choice of most men is that they do not want be redeemed as they would rather life the life they choose.
Ho!
Most people are too intelligent to be unable to understand what God means by this term foreknowledge, foreknew, etc. Therefore I suggest some people are being tricked into misunderstanding it. The simplest definition is to know before. That is all it means. There is nothing spooky about the word. It is a NT term. It cannot be found in the OT because God did not foreknow Israel in those days, he knew them. So this word in all it's variations, is used in in the NT only. He foreknew them as a father knows his son because he saw Israel collectively as his firstborn son when they received a national birth at the exodus. This was his natural physical birth, but he was in need of a new birth, a spiritual new birth. This is the man in John 3:3 and John 3:5 who must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. Israel is a metaphor, a visual of what it means to be born again.
He did not foreknow any gentile. If anyone is banking their eternal salvation on being foreknown of God, I suggest you will be very disappointed. Whoever has a doctrine of salvation that makes the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ secondary in salvation is deceived and should rethink the gospel sooner than later.
EX 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (in other words get some fame for me)
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
The second birth of Israel anticipated.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer (in Re 19), and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Most people are too intelligent to be unable to understand what God means by this term foreknowledge, foreknew, etc. Therefore I suggest some people are being tricked into misunderstanding it. The simplest definition is to know before. That is all it means. There is nothing spooky about the word. It is a NT term. It cannot be found in the OT because God did not foreknow Israel in those days, he knew them. So this word in all it's variations, is used in in the NT only. He foreknew them as a father knows his son because he saw Israel collectively as his firstborn son when they received a national birth at the exodus. This was his natural physical birth, but he was in need of a new birth, a spiritual new birth. This is the man in John 3:3 and John 3:5 who must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. Israel is a metaphor, a visual of what it means to be born again.
He did not foreknow any gentile. If anyone is banking their eternal salvation on being foreknown of God, I suggest you will be very disappointed. Whoever has a doctrine of salvation that makes the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ secondary in salvation is deceived and should rethink the gospel sooner than later.
EX 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (in other words get some fame for me)
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
The second birth of Israel anticipated.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer (in Re 19), and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The Elect Children of God and Christ saved them all, fulfilling the Fathers desire will
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You do have an odd way of reading the word of God.