Understanding 2 Thessalonians 2:13

[David Lamb]

David that is what calvinist theory says. Where the calvinist's fail is that they say faith is given to them after they are saved. They say they are saved unconditionally.

The bible says we are saved because we believe not so that you will believe.

So what I said is true.

If you believe = will be saved by God

If you do not believe = will be condemned by God

The calvinist view cannot be true as they have people saved while they are still unbelievers.

All I can say is that all the Christians I know who hold to the doctrines of grace fully believe in the necessity of faith/belief. If we look at the Calvinistic confessions of faith we find the same thing. For example, the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith comtains a chapter entitled "Of Saving Faith" which reads as follows:

"Paragraph 1​

The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,1 and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word;2 by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened.3

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1 2 Cor. 4:13; Eph. 2:8
2 Rom. 10:14,17
3 Luke 17:5; 1 Pet. 2:2; Acts 20:32

---

—​

Paragraph 2​

By this faith a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself,4 and also apprehends an excellency therein above all other writings and all things in the world,5 as it bears forth the glory of God in his attributes, the excellency of Christ in his nature and offices, and the power and fullness of the Holy Spirit in his workings and operations: and so is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth consequently believed;6 and also acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands,7 trembling at the threatenings,8 and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come;9 but the principle acts of saving faith have immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.10

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4 Acts 24:14
5 Ps. 19:7-10, 69:72
6 2 Tim. 1:12
7 John 15:14
8 Isa. 116:2
9 Heb. 11:13
10 John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Gal. 2:20; Acts 15:11

---

—​

Paragraph 3​

This faith, although it be in different stages, and may be weak or strong,11 yet it is in the least degree of it different in the kind or nature of it, as is all other saving grace, from the faith and common grace of temporary believers;12 and therefore, though it may be many times assailed and weakened, yet it gets the victory,13 growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ,14 who is both the author and finisher of our faith.15

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11 Heb. 5:13–14; Matt. 6:30; Rom. 4:19–20
12 2 Pet. 1:1
13 Eph. 6:16; 1 John 5:4–5
14 Heb. 6:11–12; Col. 2:2
15 Heb. 12:2"

 

[percho]

Ho!
Most people are too intelligent to be unable to understand what God means by this term foreknowledge, foreknew, etc. Therefore I suggest some people are being tricked into misunderstanding it. The simplest definition is to know before. That is all it means. There is nothing spooky about the word. It is a NT term. It cannot be found in the OT because God did not foreknow Israel in those days, he knew them. So this word in all it's variations, is used in in the NT only. He foreknew them as a father knows his son because he saw Israel collectively as his firstborn son when they received a national birth at the exodus. This was his natural physical birth, but he was in need of a new birth, a spiritual new birth. This is the man in John 3:3 and John 3:5 who must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. Israel is a metaphor, a visual of what it means to be born again.

He did not foreknow any gentile. If anyone is banking their eternal salvation on being foreknown of God, I suggest you will be very disappointed. Whoever has a doctrine of salvation that makes the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ secondary in salvation is deceived and should rethink the gospel sooner than later.

EX 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (in other words get some fame for me)
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

The second birth of Israel anticipated.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer (in Re 19), and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Amen Brother

You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Know before.

 

[percho]

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Born again

 

[Van]

Respectfully Van,
I can understand my Saviour's words by reading them for myself.

Thank you for your effort ( and I know that it's a sincere one ), but it seems to me ( and has for the entire time that I've been on this forum ) that you really haven't read and understood what Paul is telling God's people:

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

That they were, from the beginning of creation, chosen to salvation through their sanctification ( being set apart by God ) and through ( not "because of", which constitutes merit ) their belief of the truth.
That, sir, is the core of our disagreement...

The words.

I know what they say and have, since I first laid eyes on them over 20 years ago now, by God's grace, and I'm standing fast on them;
Not your explanation of them.
I have Him to explain to me what they mean ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).


May He bless you and show you many things in His mercy.

Respectfully Dave G,

I can understand my Savior's words by reading them. Thus it is our understanding that differs.

Here is where we agree:
"We were...chosen to salvation through our sanctification (being set apart into Christ by God's Spirit) and through (not because of, which constitutes merit) our faith in the truth."

For you to claim my view says we were chosen because of our faith demonstrates you cannot read, or you are willing to misrepresent what I said.

I said our faith provides our "access" to God's grace of election, but our faith does not merit or earn our salvation. Salvation does NOT depend on the person who wills, but upon God who has mercy. Romans 9:16.

 

[Brightfame52]

You do have an odd way of reading the word of God.

Are you suggesting Christ fell short of doing His Fathers will ? The Father sent Him to seek and to save that which was lost Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

So aren't those the Father desires to be saved here 1 Tim 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Now if Christ doesn't seek and save all the Father desires to be saved, then He fell short. But scripture says Christ would prosper Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The word pleasure means:

delight, pleasure

delight

desire, longing

the good pleasure

that in which one takes delight

 

[Silverhair]

The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,

David those that hold to the DoG/TULIP have to twist the word of God for it to fit that view.

"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,"1

The use of 2Co 4:13 as support is odd as it has belief {faith} prior to his speaking. And then Eph_2:8 which is even clearer that God saves us because we believe.

Your Tulip says one is saved unconditionally but the verses referenced both indicate faith first then salvation.
Plus for the DoG/TULIP to be true you would have to rewrite or ignore a number of verses.

Joh_3:16 ... that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Rom_10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Rom_10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, ... and believe in your heart...you will be saved

Act_16:31 ..., “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,

Rom_3:22 ... the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ

Rom_5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith...
Rom_5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand

David I am not saying that calvinists do not believe what I am saying and the bible confirms is that your understanding of the order of salvation is wrong. You are not saved so you will believe but rather believe so you will be saved.

You are only elect when you are in the "Elect One" through faith not before.

 

[Dave G]

For you to claim my view says we were chosen because of our faith demonstrates you cannot read, or you are willing to misrepresent what I said.

I'm not purposefully misrepresenting anything, Van.
I read what you said, and I feel that I understood it accordingly. If I may suggest something?

If you feel that I'm misunderstanding you,
Perhaps to avoid such things, may I suggest that you word your posts carefully, so as to remove all doubt as to what is being conveyed?

I know from experience that choosing one's words carefully goes a long way towards removing any potential misunderstandings in an audience.
Nevertheless, it's still a work in progress in my own life.

 

[Dave G]

I said our faith provides our "access" to God's grace of election, but our faith does not merit or earn our salvation.

And I see that as a contradiction, sir.

According to what I see in the Scriptures, faith is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2 ), not "of" ourselves... which is authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and is the evidence of a person's salvation by God ( Hebrews 11:1 ). Our faith comes from Jesus Christ, not ourselves ( Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16-20, Galatians 3:21-26, Ephesians 2:8-9 ), and before the believer's faith came to them, they were, by nature, exactly as the children of wrath ( Ephesians 2 ).

For a person's faith to come from God, yet provide access to election, does not square with how I'm reading and understanding the words.
Election, which belongs to the Lord, is described in His word in Romans 8 and Romans 9 ( among other places ) as being His prerogative...
And is exercised apart from the wishes and desires of sinners.

"From the foundation of the world" means ( to me ) " from the beginning "...just as Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2.
Therefore, "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" means, to me, "before the world began, God chose people to salvation through the Spirit sanctifying them and through ( not "because of" ) their belief of the truth."

To be more specific, "From the beginning" = "before the foundation of the world" = " from the foundation of the world" = "before the world began"...
They are all one and the same to me.
However, what you're putting forth doesn't match what I see when I read it for myself.

Therein is our disagreement, I'm sorry to say.

 

[Dave G]

Salvation does NOT depend on the person who wills, but upon God who has mercy. Romans 9:16.

I agree.
Which is where the so-called "Calvinist" definition of election comes in...

I understand from the Scriptures that God has mercy on whom He wills, not on whom we will.
Election, which to me is the Lord choosing people "in Christ" before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ) is therefore unconditional and cannot, in any way, depend upon the desires or efforts of men.
That is what makes salvation "of grace", and not "of works" ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

Again, ( and according to what you've stated above ), "salvation does not depend on the person who wills, but upon God who has mercy."
My question to you is, "Are you trying to say in this thread that salvation does depend upon the person who wills, or doesn't?"
There is my misunderstanding.

To me,
For it to depend upon God, then election ( God's choice of the sinner to salvation ) must be unconditional.
For it to depend upon man, then election must be conditional.

At this point it doesn't matter "who's right and who's wrong"...
What matters to me, is that I see and understand it one way, and you ( apparently ) another.
If we agree with each other, then we can have true fellowship as professing believers.
If not, then we cannot... and we go our separate ways with respect to that fellowship.

I'm sorry, but I will not trade unity for truth...that truth being, what I see and believe from my own studies in His word, sir;
Not what John Calvin or John Wesley or any other man taught as being the truth.


Again, may God bless you.

 

[Silverhair]

Are you suggesting Christ fell short of doing His Fathers will ? The Father sent Him to seek and to save that which was lost Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

So aren't those the Father desires to be saved here 1 Tim 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Now if Christ doesn't seek and save all the Father desires to be saved, then He fell short. But scripture says Christ would prosper Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The word pleasure means:

delight, pleasure

delight

desire, longing

the good pleasure

that in which one takes delight

Christ did just what the Father wanted Him to do. He came to seek and to save the lost.

Question for you BF who are the lost? Here is a hint Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

I note you quote 1Ti 2:4 but as usual you only see the part you need and ignore the rest.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So we see that the lost that Christ came to seek and save are the same ones that God desires to come to knowledge of the truth.

But note He desires that they come to that knowledge He does not force them to do so.

So the question then becomes why and how is someone saved?
The bible answers that in clear text
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, ...

Rom_10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, ... and believe in your heart...you will be saved

BF it is not hard to understand God's means of salvation once you get past the false theories of man.

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ did just what the Father wanted Him to do. He came to seek and to save the lost.

Did He save all God wanted to be Saved?

 

[Van]

I'm not purposefully misrepresenting anything, Van.
I read what you said, and I feel that I understood it accordingly. If I may suggest something?

If you feel that I'm misunderstanding you,
Perhaps to avoid such things, may I suggest that you word your posts carefully, so as to remove all doubt as to what is being conveyed?

I know from experience that choosing one's words carefully goes a long way towards removing any potential misunderstandings in an audience.
Nevertheless, it's still a work in progress in my own life.

Thus we were NOT saved because of our faith, our faith only allowed God to credit it or not. Our faith did not deserve salvation or merit salvation, the accreditation was a act of mercy and grace. Salvation does NOT depend upon the person who wills, but upon God who has mercy. [from the OP]

The above is a clear statement no honest person could read as saying we are saved because of our faith.

 

[Silverhair]

Did He save all God wanted to be Saved?

Well BF what does the bible say about God's desire?
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So either God is a failure or you have misunderstood the word of God.

He saved all those that wanted to be saved.

Read the bible BF, God saves those that trust in Him.

Joh_3:16 ... that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

You have it backwards BF you think God saves them so they will believe in Him.

I am still waiting for the one that clearly says, what must I do to be saved?
Nothing, God saves you so that you will believe.

You must have that in your bible BF as you keep saying that is how it happens.

 

[Dave G]

Idiotic absurdity, a total rewrite of the text

This is all they have folk, rewrite after rewrite to alter God's word according the man-made doctrine from the dark ages.

The posts of each and every Calvinist try to rewrite the text.

Van,
I'm going to ask you a question out of curiosity, and perhaps this will give you an outsider's look at what you're doing when you reply to people who either agree with you or disagree with you.

I've asked you similar questions before, and it seems that all you know how to do is to deflect people's attention off you and how you're acting, and re-direct them to the issues that you bring up...
When the Lord specifically states ( in the details ) that how we say something as believers in Jesus Christ is as equally important to what we say.

Here's the question:

How is it that you believe yourself to be a teacher of God's word, when statements like the above indicate that you do not have the patience to deal with people who disagree with you... and instead lash out at them, ridicule them, and otherwise degrade them as persons... for not doing so?


My friend, you insult almost everyone who disagrees with you, and to me, you don't appear to see a thing wrong with it...
No matter who or how they try to make you aware of it.


That said, I take leave of your thread and wish all who read this well, and the Lord's blessings upon them.

 

[Van]

And I see that as a contradiction, sir.

According to what I see in the Scriptures, faith is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2 ), not "of" ourselves... which is authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and is the evidence of a person's salvation by God ( Hebrews 11:1 ). Our faith comes from Jesus Christ, not ourselves ( Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16-20, Galatians 3:21-26, Ephesians 2:8-9 ), and before the believer's faith came to them, they were, by nature, exactly as the children of wrath ( Ephesians 2 ).

For a person's faith to come from God, yet provide access to election, does not square with how I'm reading and understanding the words.
Election, which belongs to the Lord, is described in His word in Romans 8 and Romans 9 ( among other places ) as being His prerogative...
And is exercised apart from the wishes and desires of sinners.

"From the foundation of the world" means ( to me ) " from the beginning "...just as Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2.
Therefore, "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" means, to me, "before the world began, God chose people to salvation through the Spirit sanctifying them and through ( not "because of" ) their belief of the truth."

To be more specific, "From the beginning" = "before the foundation of the world" = " from the foundation of the world" = "before the world began"...
They are all one and the same to me.
However, what you're putting forth doesn't match what I see when I read it for myself.

Therein is our disagreement, I'm sorry to say.

According to scripture, pre-salvation faith is NOT a gift! Your statement if false. Your intentionally vague claim about Ephesians 2:8 is fiction. I expect you know that the pronoun "that" does not refer to faith, the pronoun being neuter while faith being feminine, but you make the false claim. What is the gift? SALVATION!

And you seem to have no idea what being the author and finisher of our faith means. It means we trust only in His birth, life, testimony, death and resurrection. It does NOT mean He instilled faith into us via Irresistible grace. That Sir is just another fiction!

Yes, you cannot square our individual election for salvation, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, with Calvinism. So accept God's word and toss your man-made doctrines of futility. An individual cannot be chosen to be a people for God's own possession, before the foundation of the world, and yet be not a people during their physical lives.

Next you purposely misrepresent Ephesians 1:4, putting "from the foundation of the world" in quotes when scripture reads "before the foundation of the world. And in the same fashion, you try to make from the beginning mean in the beginning. There is no hope for unity when truth is optional.

Before the world began, the KJV rendering in 2 Timothy 1:9 equates with before the foundation of the world. Before the creation of any humans.
But God's plan for redemption began being implemented before creation when God chose Logos to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God. Thus God's purpose and grace was given to those of us in Christ as born anew believers, from even before humanity began. Here the "sleight of hand," the adroitness of deception, is implying we were "in Christ" before we existed, which is precluded because after we existed, we were once "not a people." The purpose and grace given was the creation of the redemption plan target group, believers whose faith God would credit as righteousness, a corporate election, not an individual election.

As far as "from the foundation of the world and from the beginning, that refers to the time interval from human creation to the end of the age of grace. For example, Jesus said the prophets were killed "from the foundation of the world" in early locations. Thus the phrase refers to an extended period, not before but after creation.

Thus every thing you "see" in scripture is fiction manufactured by Calvinist falsehoods.

 

[Brightfame52]

Thus we were NOT saved because of our faith, our faith only allowed God to credit it or not. Our faith did not deserve salvation or merit salvation, the accreditation was a act of mercy and grace. Salvation does NOT depend upon the person who wills, but upon God who has mercy. [from the OP]

The above is a clear statement no honest person could read as saying we are saved because of our faith.

There's no faith until one is saved by regeneration. So faith doesn't allow God to do anything, If anything God allows or gives faith. God the Spirit

 

[Brightfame52]

Well BF what does the bible say about God's desire?

Did Christ save all God willed/Desires to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? That's what His Father sent Him to accomplish.

 

[Brightfame52]

that" does not refer to faith, the pronoun being neuter while faith being feminine, but you make the false claim. What is the gift? SALVATION!

Yes it does, it refers to the whole process of Salvation by Grace through Faith, none of it is of ourselves.

 

[Silverhair]

Did Christ save all God willed/Desires to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? That's what His Father sent Him to accomplish.

BF you never answer questions as that would point out the error of your views.

What does the bible say BF?

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

oh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.

Act 16:30 ... "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 ... "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, ..."

The answer is obvious and if you are honest you will see what the bible says and reject what your religious theory says.

 

[Van]

Van,
I'm going to ask you a question out of curiosity, and perhaps this will give you an outsider's look at what you're doing when you reply to people who either agree with you or disagree with you.

I've asked you similar questions before, and it seems that all you know how to do is to deflect people's attention off you and how you're acting, and re-direct them to the issues that you bring up...
When the Lord specifically states ( in the details ) that how we say something as believers in Jesus Christ is as equally important to what we say.

Here's the question:

How is it that you believe yourself to be a teacher of God's word, when statements like the above indicate that you do not have the patience to deal with people who disagree with you... and instead lash out at them, ridicule them, and otherwise degrade them as persons... for not doing so?


My friend, you insult almost everyone who disagrees with you, and to me, you don't appear to see a thing wrong with it...
No matter who or how they try to make you aware of it.


That said, I take leave of your thread and wish all who read this well, and the Lord's blessings upon them.

Here is an entire post address my supposed character flaws, rather than biblical doctrine. Why the effort to change the subject to me, rather than 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Someone said belief of the truth is the result of sanctification by the spirit. I called that view "idiotic absurdity." 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen for salvation "through" or on the basis of faith in the truth. It does not say sanctification provides faith in the truth. That claim is idiotic absurdity.

Next a view is expressed that changes the Greek inspired noun, into a verb to alter what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say, which is we were chosen rather than saved through faith in the truth.

Calvinism is obviously false, that is why poster after poster misrepresents what I say and what scripture says. That is why you wanted to discuss me, rather than 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which demonstrates Calvinism is false doctrine.