Understanding Preterism

[Martin Marprelate]

No, this idea is not gnostic. They (gnostics) go to unbiblical extremes. I am surprised that I even have to argue how spirit existence in itself is superior to physical existence.

I am surprised that you continue to argue like a Gnostic. There is no evidence that spirit existence is somehow better than physical. Angels are those who minister to (ie. serve) Christians (Hebrews 1:14).

That is why – as I also wrote; unnoticed, uncommented on – Paul refers to that time as the “days of His flesh”.
Why did he use that phrase?
Are these present days not also - according to you - "the days of his flesh"?
Why didn't Paul just write the "days of His humiliation" or "the days of His presence on Earth"?

In the 'days of His flesh,' by which the writer means His time upon earth, our Lord suffered from bodily weaknesses; He was tired and needed to sleep, He was 'in every way made like His brethren' (Hebrews2:17) so I suppose He suffered from headaches and other ailments. When He rose from the dead, He had a different kind of body, but it was still a physical one. In that body He rose into heaven, and in that body He will return. You may imagine that He has parked it somewhere in heaven at the present time, but Philippians 3:21 certainly seems to contradict that.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, it was pronounced “good” and “very good”. But there is a quality that is higher than “very good” and that is “perfect”. And that is what God had been throughout eternity past without any connection to “materiality” (for want of a better word).

So when God created the world, He actually did a bad thing and was lying when He said it was good? He made the Universe worse because it now has stuff in it?

 

[tyndale1946]

Our Lord qualifies this statement; we will be like the angels in heaven in that we shall not marry. We shall also resemble them in that we shall not age and grow old. But we shall be more blessed than the angels in that we shall have a perfect resurrection body for unlike the angels, we are 'children of the resurrection' (Luke 20:36) and resemble Jesus Christ, the firstfruits from the dead, who rose with a resurrection body. What we are eagerly looking forward to is the return of Christ, 'Who, by the power that enables Him to bring everything under His control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like His glorious body' (Philippians 3:20-21). Therefore the ascended Christ has a body, a glorious, resurrection body, but a body nonetheless q.e.d.

Every creed of which I am aware: ecumenical, Romanist, Protestant, Baptist, from the Apostles' and Nicaean Creeds to the present day speaks of the Return of Christ in glory. It is a glorious and wonderful truth and one which no orthodox Christian would ever deny.

I agree and these verses would be pretty redundant if we were raised in other than a physical, bodily resurrection... If not why is this even in the Bible?... Brother Glen

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I have heard this argument also what about those bodies that have been cremated, decomposed in the ocean, had all sorts of atrocities committed against it, explosions, torn to shreds by wild animals, blown up in wars, accidents, diseases and anything you can think of... I think that is the belief that divides the camp and in doing so does not that limit God?... What about Job who said I will see God with my own eyes?... I agree with Brother Martin that a physical bodily resurrection is the bedrock of our faith and just because I don't understand it does not make it so... Brethren who believe otherwise should take a trip to Ezekiel 37 to the valley of dry bones!... Our God and Savior Jesus Christ is not limited... He speaks and it is, commands and stands fast!... This is the same God that created the world and everything in it out of nothing will bring all of it together at the last trump... The same body that went in is same one coming out changed immortalized and glorified to never die again... The Bible is plain and God is not the author of confusion!... Brother Glen

 

[tyndale1946]

I agree and these verses would be pretty redundant if we were raised in other than a physical, bodily resurrection... If not why is this even in the Bible?... Brother Glen

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I have heard this argument also what about those bodies that have been cremated, decomposed in the ocean, had all sorts of atrocities committed against it, explosions, torn to shreds by wild animals, blown up in wars, accidents, diseases and anything you can think of... I think that is the belief that divides the camp and in doing so does not that limit God?... What about Job who said I will see God with my own eyes?... I agree with Brother Martin that a physical bodily resurrection is the bedrock of our faith and just because I don't understand it does not make it so... Brethren who believe otherwise should take a trip to Ezekiel 37 to the valley of dry bones!... Our God and Savior Jesus Christ is not limited... He speaks and it is, commands and stands fast!... This is the same God that created the world and everything in it out of nothing will bring all of it together at the last trump... The same body that went in is same one coming out changed immortalized and glorified to never die again... The Bible is plain and God is not the author of confusion!... Brother Glen

Just an addition a friend of mine Elder Joe Holder who has been a minister for over 50 years had this to say concerning the literal physical resurrection of Jesus Christ... Brother Glen

We could appeal to any number of New Testament passages that affirm the specific character of Jesus’ resurrection, but they all speak to the same truth. His resurrection was literal and physical. It involved His physical body, that same body that was born of a virgin, lived as a man for around thirty-three years, suffered at the hands of the Romans and the religious leaders in Jerusalem, was crucified by the Romans, buried, and—yes indeed—arose three days later. Our study passage goes to great length to affirm the literal reality of Jesus’ resurrection. No gnostic or mystical explanation of a “Spirit body” can withstand the vivid witness of Jesus’ literal body that stood before the disciples. Based on John’s writings, especially First John, one of the earliest heresies to invade first century Christianity was a gnostic fantasy that denied that Jesus had a human body at all or that, if He had a human body, that it arose from the dead, much less entered heaven at the ascension. According to John, this belief assaults one of the most fundamental and essential truths of Biblical truth. How strongly does John reject the gnostic heresy?

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3; emphasis added)

 

[HankD]

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3; emphasis added)

I don't know that full preterists have achieved this level of denial as Tom has witnessed that they believe Jesus Christ has indeed come in the flesh (a mortal body born of woman, subject to death) and rose again from the dead in that body. Some preterists do not believe that He retains that body today. That is the reason for my question to Tom - what happened between the ascension to heaven and today to that corporeal body?

This is not only a teaching of some preterists but some "protestants" (not that that makes it right).

More evidence - There will be "eating and drinking" in the Kingdom of God (requires a physical body).

Luke 22
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

HankD

 

[asterisktom]

Today has been a busy day for me here so I am only able to get this one response off. Hopefully I will be able to answer more tomorrow.

Our Lord qualifies this statement; we will be like the angels in heaven in that we shall not marry. We shall also resemble them in that we shall not age and grow old. But we shall be more blessed than the angels in that we shall have a perfect resurrection body for unlike the angels, we are 'children of the resurrection' (Luke 20:36) and resemble Jesus Christ, the firstfruits from the dead, who rose with a resurrection body.

Christ does indeed qualify His statement, but not in the way you assert. You make it sound like our not marrying is what makes us like the angels. You have it backwards. Please read the text again:

“35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.”

Notice the chain of cause and effect. The not marrying and giving in marriage – the latter phrase is an important detail, BTW, but that is for another thread – stems (notice the “for”) from them not dying anymore. And, in turn, the not dying anymore stems from the dual stated reasons (“because”):

1. “they are equal to angels”, and

2. they “are sons of God”.

And underlying this is their “being sons of the resurrection”.

In short, not marrying and giving in marriage, and not dying anymore are results of – not reasons for – being like the angels.

This once again leaves the question unanswered: How are we like the angels?

What we are eagerly looking forward to is the return of Christ, 'Who, by the power that enables Him to bring everything under His control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like His glorious body' (Philippians 3:20-21). Therefore the ascended Christ has a body, a glorious, resurrection body, but a body nonetheless q.e.d.

“20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. "

Once again, I get the feeling that you do not understand my position. I do not deny Christ has a body, only that it is no longer - at this time - physical. “Body” need not always mean “physical body”.

Which brings me to the second point here. I see you quoted the NIV's unfortunate rendering here. I believe the passage I quoted (ESV) is better. The word, I think - I don't have my Greek handy and the Internet right now in China is quite contrary - , is “body” (singular), not “bodies”. That makes a difference, opening the way for interpretation that Paul is speaking of the corporate body, as he does in Ephesian 4:4:

“4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, “

Every creed of which I am aware: ecumenical, Romanist, Protestant, Baptist, from the Apostles' and Nicaean Creeds to the present day speaks of the Return of Christ in glory. It is a glorious and wonderful truth and one which no orthodox Christian would ever deny.

Yes, I get it. You are big on the creeds. So were the Romanists as they hounded the Lutherans. At any rate – as it stands in your paragraph above – I agree one hundred percent. I just believe His glorious return already happened. And we are resting in the power and security of His ongoing presence.

 

[asterisktom]

So when God created the world, He actually did a bad thing and was lying when He said it was good? He made the Universe worse because it now has stuff in it?

I will tell you right now that this response is so silly and unbecoming of you that it does not warrant any further response. I say no such thing.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I will tell you right now that this response is so silly and unbecoming of you that it does not warrant any further response. I say no such thing.

Nevertheless, it is what you are saying. If the physical is in itself inferior to the spiritual, then ipso facto when God made the world and put stuff in it, the Creation must have got worse, and therefore God could not truthfully have pronounced it 'very good.'
.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Nevertheless, it is what you are saying. If the physical is in itself inferior to the spiritual, then ipso facto when God made the world and put stuff in it, the Creation must have got worse, and therefore God could not truthfully have pronounced it 'very good.'
.

Sounds like some gnostic thought creeping in imo...not you, but what you're addressing

 

[Greektim]

Sounds like some gnostic thought creeping in imo...not you, but what you're addressing

This thinking is rampant throughout evangelicalism. People focus so much on "going to heaven" that they fail to realize that the goal is a new creation... here... and resurrected bodies... for here!

This is why rapture theology is so popular. It is neo-platonic gnosticism veiled in terms of eschatology.

 

[Internet Theologian]

This thinking is rampant throughout evangelicalism. People focus so much on "going to heaven" that they fail to realize that the goal is a new creation... here... and resurrected bodies... for here!

Yep, they are TAUGHT that if they say a prayer then their 'retirement plan' is all taken care of. The Gospel has been truncated to just that; 'Go to heaven when you die'.

 

[HankD]

Nevertheless, it is what you are saying. If the physical is in itself inferior to the spiritual, then ipso facto when God made the world and put stuff in it, the Creation must have got worse, and therefore God could not truthfully have pronounced it 'very good.'
.

It was very good (Heb. tov mod). But it did indeed get worse Martin when Adam sinned it does seem to have affected the entirety of creation and God had to intervene and expel our parents from the garden of Eden ("pleasure") and keep them from the tree of life.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Genesis 3
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Later the corruption due to sin escalated and caused God to say:

Genesis 6
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Hmm, things don't seem to be "very good" anymore.

The total effect is indicated in the following:

NKJV Romans 8
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

It appears from this passage that "death" was/is systemic throughout the entire universe.

I don't believe it was that way from the beginning but is due to the adamic fall.

Even the scientific community calls the slow death of the universe "entropy" or "The heat death of the universe".

The idea of heat death stems from the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy tends to increase in an isolated system. If the universe lasts for a sufficient time, it will asymptotically approach a state where all energy is evenly distributed

.
Google result "entropy".

The universe is predicted to die in 5 billion years...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ce-universe-end-of-time-multiverse-inflation/

Coincidentally the Andromeda Galaxy is on a collision course with our own Galaxy, The Milky Way and will collide with us in 5 billion years

However its not so bad - our sun is predicted to Nova (Burn out - so to speak) before Andromeda arrives.

OK - these are scientific "facts" but I included them to bring a little bit of light humor into the boxing match and show that even the world is aware that death reigns in this universe.

The good news of Romans 8 is that the sons of God appear to have been appointed to remedy this situation.

21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

HankD

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It was very good (Heb. tov mod). But it did indeed get worse Martin when Adam sinned it does seem to have affected the entirety of creation and God had to intervene and expel our parents from the garden of Eden ("pleasure") and keep them from the tree of life.

That I do not deny at all. My argument is that at creation the world was exactly as God desired it. It cannot have been worse than what was there before.

 

[HankD]

That I do not deny at all. My argument is that at creation the world was exactly as God desired it. It cannot have been worse than what was there before.

OK, Thanks Martin.

HankD

 

[Martin Marprelate]

“35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.”

The elect do not marry or give in marriage because they cannot die any more, being equal to the angels and sons of God. Why are they in that exalted state? Because they are children of the resurrection. The angels have nothing to do with the resurrection. It is Christ who was raised from the dead, the 'firstfruits; afterwards those who are Christ's at His coming' (1 Cor. 15:22). [As a parenthesis, I can't help wondering how we who are Christ's today are going to be raised, if Christ's 'coming' took place in AD70!!] But if Christ is the firstfruits, and He was raised with a physical body, we who are united to Christ shall also be raised with physical bodies. It's so simple a child could understand it!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Phil. 3:20-21, ESV. “20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. "

Once again, I get the feeling that you do not understand my position. I do not deny Christ has a body, only that it is no longer - at this time - physical. “Body” need not always mean “physical body”.

My point is that our Lord was raised with a physical body (Luke 24:39), ascended with a physical body, and will return with a physical body (Acts 1:9-11). When He arrived in heaven He is described as 'One like the Son of Man,' (Daniel 7:13) which certainly suggests that He still maintained that physical resurrection body.

Which brings me to the second point here. I see you quoted the NIV's unfortunate rendering here. I believe the passage I quoted (ESV) is better. The word, I think - I don't have my Greek handy and the Internet right now in China is quite contrary - , is “body” (singular), not “bodies”. That makes a difference, opening the way for interpretation that Paul is speaking of the corporate body, as he does in Ephesian 4:4:

“4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, “

You are correct about soma, 'body' being singular, but that is simply because we only have one body each. If you are suggesting that Phil. 3:20f is a reference to the Church being the body of Christ, that is not possible. Christians are the body of Christ, and were in AD 55 or whenever Paul wrote Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:27. How was the Corinthian church transformed from a lowly body to a glorious body in AD 70? How were the bodies of individual Corinthians transformed by the destruction of Jerusalem? they would not even have heard bout it for some weeks or even months. The end of the world occurred, the new heavens and new earth were ushered in, 'every eye' saw Jesus Christ, and they, and 90% of the other Christians at the time, didn't even know about it!

Yes, I get it. You are big on the creeds. So were the Romanists as they hounded the Lutherans. At any rate – as it stands in your paragraph above – I agree one hundred percent. I just believe His glorious return already happened. And we are resting in the power and security of His ongoing presence.

Yes, errorists hate creeds. The arrogance of thinking that one is wiser than all who have gone before, from the Church fathers through the Reformers, Puritans, Evangelicals, Baptists and so forth is breathtaking. But where is your 'glorious return of Christ' in AD 70? Who gloried in it? Who saw it? Who wrote about it? No one! Did 'all the tribes of the earth' mourn because of Him (Rev. 1:7)? They didn't even know about it! Laugh

 

[asterisktom]

Just an addition a friend of mine Elder Joe Holder who has been a minister for over 50 years had this to say concerning the literal physical resurrection of Jesus Christ... Brother Glen

We could appeal to any number of New Testament passages that affirm the specific character of Jesus’ resurrection, but they all speak to the same truth. His resurrection was literal and physical. It involved His physical body, that same body that was born of a virgin, lived as a man for around thirty-three years, suffered at the hands of the Romans and the religious leaders in Jerusalem, was crucified by the Romans, buried, and—yes indeed—arose three days later. Our study passage goes to great length to affirm the literal reality of Jesus’ resurrection. No gnostic or mystical explanation of a “Spirit body” can withstand the vivid witness of Jesus’ literal body that stood before the disciples. Based on John’s writings, especially First John, one of the earliest heresies to invade first century Christianity was a gnostic fantasy that denied that Jesus had a human body at all or that, if He had a human body, that it arose from the dead, much less entered heaven at the ascension. According to John, this belief assaults one of the most fundamental and essential truths of Biblical truth. How strongly does John reject the gnostic heresy?

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3; emphasis added)

I assume, brother, you were just glancing at my posts when you wrote the above. Because you surely are not describing my belief. I certainly "affirm the literal reality of Jesus’ resurrection" and confess "that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh".

But notice that this Scripture - always our rule of faith, not creeds - does not say anything about Christ coming back in the flesh. I have had several opponents to my view that try to help the inspired Apostle out and add that phrase.

Nowhere does the Bible state that Christ will come back in the flesh.

 

[asterisktom]

That I do not deny at all. My argument is that at creation the world was exactly as God desired it. It cannot have been worse than what was there before.

If that is your argument I don't know who you are having it with. Certainly not me.

 

[asterisktom]

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The elect do not marry or give in marriage because they cannot die any more, being equal to the angels and sons of God. Why are they in that exalted state? Because they are children of the resurrection. The angels have nothing to do with the resurrection.

Yes, I agree with all of this. I even wrote this in my posts, except for the last sentence (which is also true). But you still seem to refuse to agree with what the Bible clearly states. Instead you asked a question I didn't even ask, but ignored mine.


But rather than beat this to death I plan to just start a new thread.

It is Christ who was raised from the dead, the 'firstfruits; afterwards those who are Christ's at His coming' (1 Cor. 15:22). [As a parenthesis, I can't help wondering how we who are Christ's today are going to be raised, if Christ's 'coming' took place in AD70!!] But if Christ is the firstfruits, and He was raised with a physical body, we who are united to Christ shall also be raised with physical bodies. It's so simple a child could understand it!

When you can't respond to a point the insults are always handy, eh? I am not going to continue in this vein. I really don't want to get involved in pointless, uncharitable arguments. There are people here I have great differences with who still manage to be courteous. You are not one of them.

 

[TCassidy]

Doesn't "in like manner" imply a bodily return?

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.