Understanding the 1000yr Reign?

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Bob: //If your description of Revelation does not match the rest of the Bible, then you have it wrong.//

If the common ordinary reading of Revelation conflicts 2 Peter 3:10 then you don't understand 2 Peter 3:10. Probably you haven't read 2 Peter 3:8 yet?

2 Pe 3:8-10 Dearely beloued, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord, as a thousande yeeres, and a thousande yeeres as one day.
9 The Lord of that promise is not slacke (as some men count slackenesse) but is pacient toward vs, and would haue no man to perish, but would all men to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a noyse, and the elements shall melt with heate, and the earth with the workes that are therein, shalbe burnt vp.


Mathematical principle: equals can be substituted for equals in any expression.

Here is an expression of an equal from 2 Peter 3:8 - one day = a thousand years
Here is an expression in Peter 3:10:

the 'day of the Lord' will come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a noyse, and the elements shall melt with heate, and the earth with the workes that are therein, shalbe burnt vp.

substituting in the Peter 3:10 exprerssion the Peter 3:8 equality we get:

the 'ONE THOUSAND YEARS of the Lord' will come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a noyse, and the elements shall melt with heate, and the earth with the workes that are therein, shalbe burnt vp.

Exactly what I read happens in Revelation 20 but in summary in Peter 3:8-10.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob: //If your description of Revelation does not match the rest of the Bible, then you have it wrong.//

If the common ordinary reading of Revelation conflicts 2 Peter 3:10 then you don't understand 2 Peter 3:10. Probably you haven't read 2 Peter 3:8 yet?

Probably you haven't read what I have posted. If you go to post #112, you will find where I not only quoted 2 Peter 3:10, I also quoted 2 Peter 3:8.

2 Pe 3:8-10 Dearely beloued, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord, as a thousande yeeres, and a thousande yeeres as one day.
9 The Lord of that promise is not slacke (as some men count slackenesse) but is pacient toward vs, and would haue no man to perish, but would all men to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a noyse, and the elements shall melt with heate, and the earth with the workes that are therein, shalbe burnt vp.

Where is the MK???????


Mathematical principle: equals can be substituted for equals in any expression.

Here is an expression of an equal from 2 Peter 3:8 - one day = a thousand years
Here is an expression in Peter 3:10:

the 'day of the Lord' will come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a noyse, and the elements shall melt with heate, and the earth with the workes that are therein, shalbe burnt vp.

substituting in the Peter 3:10 exprerssion the Peter 3:8 equality we get:

the 'ONE THOUSAND YEARS of the Lord' will come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a noyse, and the elements shall melt with heate, and the earth with the workes that are therein, shalbe burnt vp.

Equality with a raptured church and the wrath of God poured out on the earth, but I see no MK!!!!!

Exactly what I read happens in Revelation 20 but in summary in Peter 3:8-10. Have you shown whether it is symbolic or not, such as the chain, the angel had in his hand, or have you shown, why it says only "souls", or have you ever shown where Jesus set up His throne on this earth ?

Going to be kinda hard to set up a Kingdom here on earth, while it burning up, seems to me.

BTW; I did read 2 Peter 3:8-10.

The following scripture of the Lord, explains it even more so.

Mat 24:39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

As I said, if your reading of Rev. is in conflict with what the Lord said, you have it wrong.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

For the life of me, I can't understand how some 10 chapters of the Bible have to be IGNORED so you can misunderstand 2 Peter 3:10.

I started to school, then I graduated from the University of Oklahoma (OU).
(this statement is a summary)

'I started to school' happened in Sept 1949 in Elk City, Oklahoma.
'I graduated from OU' in Dec 1976 - some 27 years later.

Gal 1:12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

We all have our education, I continued on in college engineering clasess for 2 years also. Also worked as an engineer for several years in the automotive industry.

As, I said. I do not understand how some ignore parts of the scripture to come up with a theology.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Bbob,

John outlines his book:

"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" (Rev 1:19, KJV).

Notice the three tenses:

1. Past 2. Present. Future


And when we read 1:9-4:1, you'll see that the Past refers to the vision of Christ (1:12-18).

Then the Present refers to the 7 churches of Asia (chps 2-3).

Now look at 4:1, which happens to be the Future, from 4-22.

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

John does outline his book, but like Skypair says in various chapters we see a going back and forth, which doesn't nullify the chronology at all.

If you are going back and forth, then it is not in chronological order. Neither does it refer to animal sacrifices.


Bbob, you can't get rid of the MK based on one text,

That is the point I am trying to make. You can't add the MK because of one scripture and nullify all the rest of the NT.

and when we understand the text in the context of biblical eschatology, it does not frustrate the MK.

What are we suppose to do with Rev 20:4-6?

As the woman who brought forth a man child. You are to put Rev 20: 4 where it belongs, in the past. What do you think all those saints that "arose" with Jesus and went into that Holy City, are doing today?



Peter's words were in response to the scoffers misunderstanding of biblical eschatology (vv.3-7)

Doesn't make any difference who Peter was talking to. It matters what He said, one day is as a thousand years with the Lord.


This refers to judgment at the end of the 7yr Tribulation and the MK.

No, its talking about:

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.




Bbob, you need to revisit your method of interpretation when it comes to Bible Prophecies.

You need to drop the Allegorizing Method. It's too inconsistent.

One of us needs to teach what Jesus said about the "end times".

Preachers never preached what you advocate about the Mk, until a couple hundred years ago. In early times a few taught about the MK, but they most believed and taught it would happen in their life time. Many taught there would be a time of "sensual" living where all the desires of the flesh would be met. Much of their doctrine, they picked up from the Jewish doctrine. Almost all of this doctrine about Daniel was added hundreds of years later. Seems to me, I have more history of the early fathers of scripture on my side, than you do. I guess they were all messed up also.


BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

As, I said. I do not understand how some ignore parts of the scripture to come up with a theology.

BBob,

Obviously, this does not include all the OT Propherttic references for some.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

One of us needs to teach what Jesus said about the "end times".

Preachers never preached what you advocate about the Mk, until a couple hundred years ago. In early times a few taught about the MK, but they most believed and taught it would happen in their life time. Many taught there would be a time of "sensual" living where all the desires of the flesh would be met. Much of their doctrine, they picked up from the Jewish doctrine. Almost all of this doctrine about Daniel was added hundreds of years later. Seems to me, I have more history of the early fathers of scripture on my side, than you do. I guess they were all messed up also.


BBob,

Ah yes! Right on time.

Ed

 

[skypair]

As, I said. I do not understand how some ignore parts of the scripture to come up with a theology.

None of us is ignoring any scripture --- we are just not ALLEGORIZING them like you do. YOu must think we have an entirely different Bible, right? How is it you take the license you do with scripture??

Believe me, BBob, we are all trying to help you. At this point, what we are doing would be called an "intervention" in a different venue because you are doing things to your mind that will stunt your spiritual growth and diminish, not expand, your ministry. For instance, if this is the Millennial Kingdom, heaven isn't going to be much to look forward to now, is it. Do you mean to tell us that this is the best Christ can do?? I don't imagine using this kingdom as a template that the Kingdom of God could be very impressive. You?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Seems to me, I have more history of the early fathers of scripture on my side, than you do. I guess they were all messed up also.[/COLOR]

Seems to me, then, that you would make a good a) Catholic or b) Reformer. :laugh:

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

None of us is ignoring any scripture --- we are just not ALLEGORIZING them like you do. YOu must think we have an entirely different Bible, right? How is it you take the license you do with scripture??

Believe me, BBob, we are all trying to help you. At this point, what we are doing would be called an "intervention" in a different venue because you are doing things to your mind that will stunt your spiritual growth and diminish, not expand, your ministry. For instance, if this is the Millennial Kingdom, heaven isn't going to be much to look forward to now, is it. Do you mean to tell us that this is the best Christ can do?? I don't imagine using this kingdom as a template that the Kingdom of God could be very impressive. You?

skypair

I understand you are trying to help me, as John Darby and D L Moody helped the seminars you all attended.

You have to use Daniel to try and make your theology, when the prophets thought the visions of Daniel would take place in their life time. You are still trying to revive them, but I am not interested, thank you. I will take what the Lord gives me.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Seems to me, I have more history of the early fathers of scripture on my side, than you do. I guess they were all messed up also.[/color]

Seems to me, then, that you would make a good a) Catholic or b) Reformer. :laugh:

skypair

I must honestly tell you Sky; you have not taught me one thing since I been on here. Your attitude turns people, to where they do not care to listen to you. You base your entire belief it seems on Daniel, when those back in the time of Daniel, believed all the visions would take place in their life time. You are still trying to revive them along with animal sacrifices in the future. Christ made the last and only true sacrifice, when He laid down His life for all mankind, if they would believe in Him. I have given you scripture after scripture of how Jesus said the eschatology would be, and no where does it allow for the Mk. I have given you scripture that the MK (past) were only the souls of the beheaded. I have given you scripture where Isaiah spoke of the First resurrection and that being Christ, and that many dead bodies would raise with him. (past). I have given you scripture where that at the end of tribulation, Jesus would rapture His church and pass judgement on the rest, including the devil and his angels. When I say tribulation, it is not the "wrath of God", that comes later.

You make a mockery of it, when it is the word of God. You should show more respect towards your fellow brethren and esteem them higher than you. You should come down from your pedestal, and try to learn the truth about the end of time. I think you should leave the eschatology to others and just try and serve the Lord, so whatever happens, you will be a part of it and escape the wrath as John the Baptist taught.

God's word is not tempered with vitriol, and hateful words, of which you do not even seem to be able to carry on a discussion, without "downing" others. In doing so, you allow others, to see into your soul. I will pray for you, that you will find help, that will bring you peace, where you do not feel you have to attack others.

BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

...

2 Pe 3:8-10 Dearely beloued, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord, as a thousande yeeres, and a thousande yeeres as one day.
9 The Lord of that promise is not slacke (as some men count slackenesse) but is pacient toward vs, and would haue no man to perish, but would all men to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a noyse, and the elements shall melt with heate, and the earth with the workes that are therein, shalbe burnt vp.

Where is the MK???????

...

The location of the Millennial Messanic Kingdom is bolded, increased in size, and made to be purple -- so you can see it better. The previous quote was of the KJV1611 Edition.

Here is the KJV1769 family of editions:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[/FONT]

 

[Ed Edwards]

Luk 17:22 (Geneva Bbile 1599 Edition):
And he saide vnto the disciples, The dayes will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the dayes of the Sonne of man, and ye shall not see it.


There is none so blind as he who WILL NOT SEE.


-

 

[Ed Edwards]

//Equality with a raptured church and the wrath of God poured out on the earth, but I see no MK!!!!!//

For you are blind of the Bible teaching: the Doctrine of God's Economy
--------------------------------------
Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is
here. I do know the Greek word being translated here
as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get
'economy'.

I do know this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years (AKA: MK)
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Frequently the Bible discusses:

What is to be is discussed in either
present tense (is done) or past tense
(done already done).
--------------------------------------

 

[TCGreek]

One of us needs to teach what Jesus said about the "end times".

Preachers never preached what you advocate about the Mk, until a couple hundred years ago. In early times a few taught about the MK, but they most believed and taught it would happen in their life time. Many taught there would be a time of "sensual" living where all the desires of the flesh would be met. Much of their doctrine, they picked up from the Jewish doctrine. Almost all of this doctrine about Daniel was added hundreds of years later. Seems to me, I have more history of the early fathers of scripture on my side, than you do. I guess they were all messed up also.


BBob,

Let's allow Scripture to speak, not the church fathers.

Scripture provides us with the method of interpretation we need for its prophecies.

Fulfilled prophecies were literally fulfilled.

Partial fulfillment were literal.

Therefore unfullfilled prophecies must be literal.

Let Scripture speak.

 

[Brother Bob]

Luk 17:22 (Geneva Bbile 1599 Edition):
And he saide vnto the disciples, The dayes will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the dayes of the Sonne of man, and ye shall not see it.


There is none so blind as he who WILL NOT SEE.


-

Talking about His death on the cross....jeepers

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

//Equality with a raptured church and the wrath of God poured out on the earth, but I see no MK!!!!!//

For you are blind of the Bible teaching: the Doctrine of God's Economy
--------------------------------------
Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

A home in Heaven, I have one too!!

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

When the soul and bodies come together and meet Christ in the air.

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

By Grace are ye saved, through faith.

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

He was already a minister, I don't see your point. It has nothing to do with the "end times".

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is
here. I do know the Greek word being translated here
as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get
'economy'.

I do know this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years (AKA: MK)
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

Also, a thousand years = 1 day, and it was only the "souls" of them that were beheaded for the word of God.

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Yes, He will take His church home and pass judgement on those who would not believe, like those who are of Israel, but are not Israel.....

Frequently the Bible discusses:

What is to be is discussed in either
present tense (is done) or past tense
(done already done).
--------------------------------------

Ed; almost everything you quoted is (done).

I agree with the (done) part, the MK is (done).

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

The location of the Millennial Messanic Kingdom is bolded, increased in size, and made to be purple -- so you can see it better. The previous quote was of the KJV1611 Edition.

Here is the KJV1769 family of editions:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[/FONT]

I do not see the "bold", I guess its because its not there.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Let's allow Scripture to speak, not the church fathers.

Scripture provides us with the method of interpretation we need for its prophecies.

Fulfilled prophecies were literally fulfilled.

Partial fulfillment were literal.

Therefore unfullfilled prophecies must be literal.

Let Scripture speak.

I agree with that:

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Jesus speaking to Israel)

Jhn 8:21¶Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

(Jesus speaking to all)

Rev 22:

7: Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8: And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9: Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10: And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11: He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15: For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16: I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20: He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

1. Can we drink of the water of life now?

2. Can we do good works now?

3. Do we keep His commandments now?

4. Is it now "whosoever heareth" now and drink of the water of Life?

Or do we have to wait until after the MK, in the future???

He is coming "quickly" and His reward is with Him, to give to every man according to their works. Now what good or what reason, would there be for a MK? He is not going to set up a Kingdom and then decide what their reward will be!!

Also, He is bringing the Lamb's book of life, with the names already enrolled. Again, what good or reason for the MK, if the decision has already been made, whether your name is in the Lamb's book of life or not. He is not going to set up a Kingdom and then decide whether to write their names in the Lamb's book of life or not. They will be there when He leave Heaven, coming after the church.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

I have given you scripture after scripture of how Jesus said the eschatology would be, and no where does it allow for the Mk.

Jesus preached a whole sermon on the MK yet to come, BBob. It's called "The Sermon on the Mount," Mt 5-7. Do you regularly cut off people's hands or gouge out their eyes to let them into the kingdom you preach? When you say the "Lord's Prayer," what kingdom are you praying will come to earth --- the one we have now? Christ's? God's? Take a read sometime and see how much you keep of it since you already inhabit the MK.

I have given you scripture that the MK (past) were only the souls of the beheaded.

Yeah, I have to admit that I didn't really understand this. Is this like "Better to have your head cut off than to enter the kingdom with a mind?" :laugh:

Seriously, you were trying to make some point about "souls" being resurrected into the kingdom -- that the kingdom is spiritual, I think. Are they among us today? Do they inhabit other bodies?

I have given you scripture where Isaiah spoke of the First resurrection and that being Christ, and that many dead bodies would raise with him. (past).

One of my favorite passages on the resurrection of the OT saints postrib. The trib is such that both Daniel and Jesus describe it a "day such as never was nor ever shall be." (The world has NOT seen the worst "day" yet, BBob!) But you will notice that Isa 26:20 says God's "indignation" shall pass over and He will "punish the earth" (not just Israel) for it's iniquity. Look at Psa 50:3-5 -- "fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him." Zech 14:12, -- "...their flesh shall consume away where they stand ... and every one that is left of the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up year to year to worship the King." (KJV caps) Ezek 36 is a mournful passage of God restoring Israel (hasn't happened yet) followed by the PROPHECY of the dead men's bones that they will be taken out of their graves (resurrected) and given bodies and the Spirit and the land again, (37:12-14. Are you supposing in YOUR kingdom that we see this being fulfilled today?

I have given you scripture where that at the end of tribulation, Jesus would rapture His church and pass judgement on the rest, including the devil and his angels.

So we have seen the tribulation (first half?), the MK is here, but you have a "gap theory" about the 2nd half -- the GT with the bowl judgments -- coming later??

You make a mockery of it, when it is the word of God. You should show more respect towards your fellow brethren and esteem them higher than you.

And you lilkewise. You may not remember but I upbraided another poster here for NOT respecting you as a preacher of God.

You should come down from your pedestal, and try to learn the truth about the end of time.

I would think that you being in the minority among true believers today, that it would be YOU studying the truth about end times. By your own admission, your eschatology comes largely from apostate Christianity -- Catholicism -- and those whom you say "never mentioned a future MK." Indeed, they thought they were setting up the MK and City of God!! I'm sure the Magesterium is glad to have you among their ranks! :laugh: (BTW, I respect persons but not necessarily their ideas. It's called "discernment.")

God's word is not tempered with vitriol, and hateful words, of which you do not even seem to be able to carry on a discussion, without "downing" others. In doing so, you allow others, to see into your soul. I will pray for you, that you will find help, that will bring you peace, where you do not feel you have to attack others.

Oh? Jesus gave the Pharisees a pretty healthy dose of "vitriol" in Mt 23, wouldn't you say? And the "moneychangers" as well, no? He respected them as persons (i.e. Nicodemus) but "lit into" their "leaven of the Pharisees!"

"And the Pharisees perceived that He was talking about them." Sounds like you and me, BBob! :laugh: Remember that verse? MT 21:45. Was Jesus "making nice" with them there?

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

I agree with that:

How can you agree and deny a literal MK?

It doesn't work that way Bbob.

A consistent literal approach to the prophecies of the Scriptures yield a literal MK.