Understanding the 1000yr Reign?

[Brother Bob]

1.
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...No. I've already covered this...

...Only the heavenly aspect of The Kingdom was taken from Israel...
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2.
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...It doesn't. The "new" covenant is yet to be made with Israel, not the Church...
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3.
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...I've already covered this too...

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4.
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...No, no, no, a thousand times, no...
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You did not answer the following of who are these people if not Israel?

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded


If these people are Israel and they did receive Christ, then are they under the "new" covenant, and if not, why. They did all that was required of them.


If we are not under the "new" covenant and we are not undet the "old" covenant, and we were grafted in to the Olive tree, then what on earth are we under??

Everything you say, defies the following scripture.

Rom 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Hbr 8:13In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Says, new covenant alread made.

Hbr 10:29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Col 1:13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Wonder why they were still preaching unto the twelves of Israel, if the kingdom was taken away from them completely.

James, chapter 1


1: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Scripture says that only a part of Israel was cutoff and blinded for unbelief, until the fulness of the Gentiles. That leaves all of the rest of Israel, who did believe. What happened to the "believing " part of Israel, that was not cutoff, or blinded. You include them with the unbelievers also, and that is just not true.

BBob,

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Understanding 1000 year reign

I heard a critic of the rapture state that people who believe in create a "perenthetical period" called the "church age" and that under this belief that christianity is the perenthetical plan and that Judaism is the primary and ultimate fulfillment of it. What are the statements back to this?

 

[kevin hobby]

You did not answer the following of who are these people if not Israel?

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

"He came unto his own ("Neuter Plural", his own things, ie. His Crown, His Sceptre, His Throne, His Kingdom), and his own ("Masculine Plural", his own people, Israel) received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"

...The, "as many as received him", must be speaking of Christians. Israel is already God's son...

Exodus 4:22
"And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn"


"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day."

The, "remnant according to the election of grace", must be speaking of the small portion of Israel which will become new creations in Christ (ie. Christians).

Everything you say, defies the following scripture.

Rom 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Hbr 8:13In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Says, new covenant alread made.

Hbr 10:29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Col 1:13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

...Nothing that I have stated "defies" any of these Scriptures...

...None of these Scriptures state that the new covenant has already been made...

 

[Brother Bob]

I heard a critic of the rapture state that people who believe in create a "perenthetical period" called the "church age" and that under this belief that christianity is the perenthetical plan and that Judaism is the primary and ultimate fulfillment of it. What are the statements back to this?

Why are we not under the Old covenant then.

I believe the "new" covenant is here, that God has brought the Jew and Gentile together as one "the Children of God" who have been born again. I believe that there is only a remnant of Israel that will be saved and that includes those that received Christ when He came and all those who will believe and be born again before they die.

Scripture says if you die in your sins, where Jesus is, you cannot come. That pretty well does away with a MK where people will have a second bite at the apple.

I believe what Jesus said:

Marvel not for the hour is coming where all that are in the grave shall come forth, unto them that hath done good the resurrection of life, unto them that have done evil the resurrection of damnantion.
That also, pretty well does away with the second bite of the apple.

Now, all those who were cutoff because of unbelief, were back when Christ was on the earth. They could not come back until the "fulness of the Gentiles comes". Well Paul said that in his life time that through preaching he might be able to save some of them who were cut off and blinded. Paul must of believed the "fulness of the Gentiles" had come when the Gentiles were accepted to be baptized also, seeing they had received the Holy Ghost.
For He said he might be able to save some of them, and it was Paul that gave us the scripture "fulness of the Gentiles" also.

Today, if any Israelite will accept Christ and be born again and not remain in unbelief, he can be saved. Now, not in the end times.

Anyone who believes that Israel cannot be saved if they will believe, does not believe the scripture of Jesus who said: Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel unto every creature, he that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

"He came unto his own ("Neuter Plural", his own things, ie. His Crown, His Sceptre, His Throne, His Kingdom), and his own ("Masculine Plural", his own people, Israel) received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"

...The, "as many as received him", must be speaking of Christians. Israel is already God's son...
Had to be speaking of a part of Israel receiveing he Messiah and doing what was required. Why on earth would God take the promise away from them of a "new" covenant?

Exodus 4:22
"And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn"


"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day."

The, "remnant according to the election of grace", must be speaking of the small portion of Israel which will become new creations in Christ (ie. Christians).

You say a small portion, but could that be the remnant? If they are the remnant, then would that not fulfill the scripture: though Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved?

They were Israel, they did all that was required. The received the Messiah. How come that did not receive the "promise" of God, of the "new" Covenant?



...Nothing that I have stated "defies" any of these Scriptures...

...None of these Scriptures state that the new covenant has already been made...

They might not state that it was made, but they sure don't state that it was not. The part that was broken off, or blinded were "some" branches for unbelief. That left all the rest of Israel.

BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

I heard a critic of the rapture state that people who believe in create a "perenthetical period" called the "church age" and that under this belief that christianity is the perenthetical plan and that Judaism is the primary and ultimate fulfillment of it. What are the statements back to this?

Rom 11:25 (KJV1611 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should bee ignorant of this mysterie (least yee should bee wise in your owne conceits) that blindnesse in part is happened to Israel, vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.

I have a proof though that the largely gentile Church is the original plan (before the foundation of the world) and Jews were the other plan, the parens )& ( as it were (since the foundation of the earth).

 

[skypair]

[Re: Kevin's post]However, I also believe it is a misuse of Scripture to attempt to read 'out of the numbers' significance that is simply not there. Three days and three nights is Scripturally significant, because Jesus said it was. Four days Lazarus had been in the tomb, and the supposed significance of "all the way back to Abraham", is ridiculous, and cut from whole cloth. Neither Jesus, nor any NT writer attaches any particular 'mystical' or typological significance to this. I do not believe we should either, frankly.

I am not as skeptical, especially regarding the wedding at Cana and the raising of Lazarus . These were "sign miracles" (John 20:30). The first, as Kevin points out, relates to us how Christ will have His own wedding in the future and, prospectively when (third day) and that He "must needs go by way of" the Samaritans (Jews-Gentile mix) which was not the easiest way.

As to Lazarus, I agree that Jesus did not head out to save the Jews for 2000 years and it will take another 2000 before He will be received. But the outcome of Israel receiving Christ in the trib will be Christ resurrecting "ALL Israel" --- all the OT saints -- just as He did Lazarus, from their graves, Isa 26:19-21, Job 19:25-28, etal.!

However, did you notice that the religious leaders wanted to kill a man who was already legally dead. (Jn. 11:39,44; 12:1, 11)

Which brings up to me, Ed, the possibility that the 144,000 firstfruits of Rev 11 MIGHT actually be some OT saints resurrected from their graves either 1) as seen on Mt Zion, (Rev 14:1-3 -- with those playing harps in heaven being the rest of the OT saints) or 2) at the same time as Moses and Elijah into the early tribulation (Rev 11:3-19)

I'll look forward to you comments. :thumbs:

skypair

 

[skypair]

I have asked before, what were the Gentiles grafted in to???? Anyway, according to them you have the soul of an animal, how would you know???

Yeah, Bob -- it IS all a mystery to them (including my soul). :laugh: and apparently to you as well since I continue answering the same question to no avail!

If you can not convince unbelieving Israel, who live under the OT, where all the scriptures your doctrine comes from, how you going to convince anyone else.

The Holy Spirit will convince them, Bob, with a little help from Elijah, Moses, and 144,000 of their fellows from every tribe of Israel.

If they were already the seed, then how come they were grafted in. If they were grafted in, then to who?

The parable speaks of Israel's RELIGIOUS privileges, Bob. The way they worship God. Are you familiar that there are still Messianic Jews? Would you accept a Messianic Jew as saved? Would that be "remnant" enough for you to visualize how some of the natural branches were left in the tree and still understand why they weren't broken off?

I been reading where you got your hands full on the other thread with Grasshopper..........

I'm glad to have you following along with us, Bob. It is really quite important that you get the "TWO FLOCK" message.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Yeah, Bob -- it IS all a mystery to them (including my soul). :laugh: and apparently to you as well since I continue answering the same question to no avail!

The Holy Spirit will convince them, Bob, with a little help from Elijah, Moses, and 144,000 of their fellows from every tribe of Israel.

The parable speaks of Israel's RELIGIOUS privileges, Bob. The way they worship God. Are you familiar that there are still Messianic Jews? Would you accept a Messianic Jew as saved? Would that be "remnant" enough for you to visualize how some of the natural branches were left in the tree and still understand why they weren't broken off?

I'm glad to have you following along with us, Bob. It is really quite important that you get the "TWO FLOCK" message.

skypair

Just kidding you a little Sky;

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Welcome, thinkingstuff! :wavey:

Wow a lot of stuff about the apocolyptic literature.

Um, you mean like "The Revelation?" or like the OT prophecies that -- did you notice -- HAVEN'T yet been fulfilled? or maybe the "literature" you're talking about the very words of Jesus when He said He would "come in the clouds of heaven in power and great glory" and "send His angels with a "GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET" (guess that wasn't reported by the "newspaper exigetes of the time :laugh and "gather the elect for the four winds and from heaven." Mt 24:30-31

They got it wrong as well. I'm probably one of the very few here that believe that the entire revelation of John already occured and will occur.

Interesting takeoff on the dual prophecy theme -- one spiritually fulfilled and one literally. I think, as I mentioned already, that the spiritual case would be pretty hard to prove.

As to numbers, we have quite a discussion revolving around that. I hesitate to go beyond the context in discerning whether literal or allegorical is in use.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Yes, we simply apply The Blood. Now, even though Israel has slain The Paschal Lamb, they have yet to apply The Blood. The day, though, is right out ahead, when, in their affliction they will seek God early and the children of Israel will sigh by reason of the bondage, and they will cry, and their cry will come up unto God by reason of the bondage and God will send Christ and they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced,...

AMEN, Kevin!

skypair

 

[skypair]

The anti christ the persecution of the church occured during the Roman Empire (Nero and Tiberius). What will occure the last judgement before God and there will be other anti christ and church persecutions.

Yes, but that early persecution was seen as Smyrna and the one in the future is specifically described in Rev 13 and 17:16. Therefore, I don't believe we have to look to the latter to describe the earier event.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I heard a critic of the rapture state that people who believe in create a "perenthetical period" called the "church age" and that under this belief that christianity is the perenthetical plan and that Judaism is the primary and ultimate fulfillment of it. What are the statements back to this?

Mainly Dan 9:24-27 // Mt 22 Note in both that it is Israel that is spoken of and there is a delineation of the timeline into 69 weeks or pre 70 AD and the 70th week or post wedding of the bride and Groom (which is when the "supper" comes).

I could probably round up some others as well, but these are pretty good. :thumbs:

skypair

 

[skypair]

Now, all those who were cutoff because of unbelief, were back when Christ was on the earth. They could not come back until the "fulness of the Gentiles comes". Well Paul said that in his life time that through preaching he might be able to save some of them who were cut off and blinded. Paul must of believed the "fulness of the Gentiles" had come when the Gentiles were accepted to be baptized also, seeing they had received the Holy Ghost. For He said he might be able to save some of them, and it was Paul that gave us the scripture "fulness of the Gentiles" also.

This MIGHT help -- the "fulness of the Gentiles" has the concurrent meaning of the fulness of their kingdoms on earth. This passage echos into Rev 11:15 "the kingdoms of the earth are become the kingdoms of our God" and Luke 21:24 "times of the Gentiles fulfilled." Truly, for all time before that it has been Gentile kingdoms "in charge" of the earth. But in that day, Israel will reign with Christ for 1000 years.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

This MIGHT help -- the "fulness of the Gentiles" has the concurrent meaning of the fulness of their kingdoms on earth. This passage echos into Rev 11:15 "the kingdoms of the earth are become the kingdoms of our God" and Luke 21:24 "times of the Gentiles fulfilled." Truly, for all time before that it has been Gentile kingdoms "in charge" of the earth. But in that day, Israel will reign with Christ for 1000 years.

skypair

There is a difference between The fulness of the Gentiles and The times of the Gentiles. IMO, I know it fits well in your theology. I really think for all of you to come up with your end times for Israel, you have to deny the believing Israel when the Lord come and place them with your unbelievers. Also, the Book of James was to the twelve tribes of Israel and you say they had already been cut off.
Just does not make sense. Also, all those who did receive Christ, what did they do wrong to not receive their Messiah??
I know you are trying to describe a fullfilment of the OT, but how about a fullfilment of the NT, and give those who followed the rules, their due??

BBob,

 

[Thinkingstuff]

1000 year reign

I believe the OT was already fulfilled. There is yet the return of Christ in Judgement but I'm not certain of a Rapture and a partial return of Jesus. The apocalypse of John was fulfilled in the early church with in one generation Isreal and the temple was no more and christians were severly persecuted. The dead were raised upon Jesus crusifiction. The 1000 years could just mean a long time. The Kingdom of God is here in his church. We have been in the last days since Jesus. Apocolyptic literature also use magnificient natural events to describe political termoil such as in Daniel. So I believe in Jesus returning. Not necissarily in the Rapture or the 1000 years rule as described in the the left behind series or the late great planet earth. (That should send some people over the edge though it's not really my intent.)

 

[skypair]

There is a difference between The fulness of the Gentiles and The times of the Gentiles. IMO, I know it fits well in your theology.

It ought to be true in your theology too. Or are you claiming that the fulness of the Gentiles or the times of the Gentiles came in in 70 AD?? If so, how come the nation of Israel we see today is not Christian?

I really think for all of you to come up with your end times for Israel, you have to deny the believing Israel when the Lord come and place them with your unbelievers.

Messianic Jews were/are the branches left in the tree, Bob!!

Also, the Book of James was to the twelve tribes of Israel and you say they had already been cut off.

1) James was written around 45-50 AD. It was the first book of the NT. It was written BEFORE Israel was "cut off" from their religious worship at the temple in 70 AD! And we know of their inclusiveness during this period through Acts 19:1-4.

Also, all those who did receive Christ, what did they do wrong to not receive their Messiah??

It's a "federal" or "dispensational" thing just like Adam. Or like the fact that the OT saints went to "Abraham's bosom" when they died pre-cross. A new "Head" was appointed to the "body," Israel, but as a "body" they did not receive Him as they did the law and Moses before Him (1Cor 10:2). "But as many as received Him..."

The "body," Bob, was 12 tribes of whom the very leaders, Pharisees (ostensibly Levites, right) did NOT accept Him.

I know you are trying to describe a fullfilment of the OT, but how about a fullfilment of the NT, and give those who followed the rules, their due??

I have all along, Bob. You are absolutely right to point out the fulfillment of the SPIRITUAL promises of the kingdom. But there are all kinds of flaws -- not the least of which is credibility of God's word and promises -- to a scheme that tells us we are in the MK now.

Plus, Bob, I would have you to be a good "steward of the mysteries of God," Eph 4:1 so that "no man take thy crown," Rev 3:11. Plus, Bob, I think your view of this issue has caused you to mix "legalism" into your practice of faith. It would probably revolutionize your ministry for you to grant the "liberty" that the new covenant gives us to those whom you teach.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
There is a difference between The fulness of the Gentiles and The times of the Gentiles. IMO, I know it fits well in your theology.

It ought to be true in your theology too. Or are you claiming that the fulness of the Gentiles or the times of the Gentiles came in in 70 AD?? If so, how come the nation of Israel we see today is not Christian?

I am saying it came in Paul's time, for he said that he might be able to "save" some of them. He couldn't save them until the fulness come!!!!!

They are Christians, or at least the Messianic Jews are. The rest are unbelievers.


Quote:
I really think for all of you to come up with your end times for Israel, you have to deny the believing Israel when the Lord come and place them with your unbelievers.
Messianic Jews were/are the branches left in the tree, Bob!!

What other kind are there except the lost and unbelieving. I don't know who gave them the name of the "Messianic Jews", but really they are the children of God, along with all of us Gentiles who believe also.



Quote:
Also, the Book of James was to the twelve tribes of Israel and you say they had already been cut off.
1) James was written around 45-50 AD. It was the first book of the NT. It was written BEFORE Israel was "cut off" from their religious worship at the temple in 70 AD! And we know of their inclusiveness during this period through Acts 19:1-4.

Baloney, those who did not accept Christ were cut off then. 70 AD had nothing to do with the blindness of unbelieving Israel.


Quote:
Also, all those who did receive Christ, what did they do wrong to not receive their Messiah??
It's a "federal" or "dispensational" thing just like Adam. Or like the fact that the OT saints went to "Abraham's bosom" when they died pre-cross. A new "Head" was appointed to the "body," Israel, but as a "body" they did not receive Him as they did the law and Moses before Him (1Cor 10:2). "But as many as received Him..."

The "body," Bob, was 12 tribes of whom the very leaders, Pharisees (ostensibly Levites, right) did NOT accept Him.

Apostle Paul was the son of a Pharisee and I suspect that many of the others were too.

So, you believe that God told the believers false, and said "I messed up".
Quote:
I know you are trying to describe a fullfilment of the OT, but how about a fullfilment of the NT, and give those who followed the rules, their due??
I have all along, Bob. You are absolutely right to point out the fulfillment of the SPIRITUAL promises of the kingdom. But there are all kinds of flaws -- not the least of which is credibility of God's word and promises -- to a scheme that tells us we are in the MK now.

You are the one who is saying that God switched gears and give the covenant to the Gentiles and left the believing part of Israel out, not me.

Plus, Bob, I would have you to be a good "steward of the mysteries of God," Eph 4:1 so that "no man take thy crown," Rev 3:11. Plus, Bob, I think your view of this issue has caused you to mix "legalism" into your practice of faith. It would probably revolutionize your ministry for you to grant the "liberty" that the new covenant gives us to those whom you teach.

skypair

So, you believe we have the "new" covenant, of which was not promised to us, we had to be grafted in to the original branches of the Olive tree, which my friend is the believing Jews, that you call the Messianic Jews. Well in your MK, they will all be Messianic Jews if the MK was yet to come. You are living in the past and you are the one who better get your story straight, for you are casting away, those who received Christ as not being Israel, when only some branches were broken off.
Those branches are over in Israel now, waiting on your donations.

I am a good steward, I am brave enough and strong enough, with the help of the Good Lord, to take you all on, and tell you that you are teaching false doctrine, and Israel slipped right through your hands.

If you could convince just "one" of those Jews over there in Israel to believe in Christ, then you might help save a lost soul.

BBob,

BTW, I baptized a young woman yesterday, in one of the streams of Kentucky. The way that John the Baptist did it.

 

[skypair]

I am saying it came in Paul's time, for he said that he might be able to "save" some of them. He couldn't save them until the fulness come!!!!!

Negative, Bob. You're talking about the "some" saved vs. ALL saved.

They are Christians, or at least the Messianic Jews are. The rest are unbelievers.

Yes, sir. And that is the remnant you've been ranting about. It is NOT "all Israel" of Rom 11:26. Messianic Jews were/are the branches left in the tree, Bob!!

What other kind are there except the lost and unbelieving. I don't know who gave them the name of the "Messianic Jews", but really they are the children of God, along with all of us Gentiles who believe also.

Yes, Bob. And they are the branches left in the tree.

Baloney, those who did not accept Christ were cut off then. 70 AD had nothing to do with the blindness of unbelieving Israel.

OK, you're making this up now. Did you even read Acts 19? The end of religious Israel, the olive tree, was the end of the temple. God took it away as a clear sign that religious Israel was cut out and that Christianity was grafted in. The only blindness here is yours.

Apostle Paul was the son of a Pharisee and I suspect that many of the others were too.

BUT EVEN PAUL DIDN'T ACCEPT CHRIST AS KING WHEN HE OFFERED THAT!! So Paul accepted Him later as Savior! Nicodemus would have been a better example for your case. He was a Pharisee and DID accept Christ but one Pharisee doesn't suffice for all.

You are the one who is saying that God switched gears and gave the covenant to the Gentiles and left the believing part of Israel out, not me.

Yes, SPIRITUALLY true!! But when does He give it to all Israel? When is the nation of Israel we see today going to believe on Christ, Bob? THAT is what has yet to be fulfilled.

skypair

 

[skypair]

So, you believe we have the "new" covenant, of which was not promised to us, we had to be grafted in to the original branches of the Olive tree, which my friend is the believing Jews, that you call the Messianic Jews. Well in your MK, they will all be Messianic Jews if the MK was yet to come.

Yes! And you know how Messianic Jews now celebrate all the OT feasts, right? There you go! In the MK, they do that "in spades!"

...for you are casting away, those who received Christ as not being Israel,

HYPOCRITE!! In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile!! YOU are the one saying that Israel continues rather than the church!!

I am a good steward, I am brave enough and strong enough, with the help of the Good Lord, to take you all on, and tell you that you are teaching false doctrine, and Israel slipped right through your hands.

:laugh: You're clearly strong enough to stand out on your own! Israel, as many as believe will be saved INDIVIDUALLY but you are insisting they came to Christ as a nation, religion, and in spirit.

BTW, I baptized a young woman yesterday, in one of the streams of Kentucky. The way that John the Baptist did it.

Bob, I'm not your enemy -- I'm your Jonathan. I'm not doubting your Eph 4:3 -- I'm doubting your Eph 4:13. In fact, I've spoken to the "god of this world" and told him to leave you alone for now! The minute -- the second -- that I leave this conversation and give up on you, I hate to be you.

skypair