I call them tares, wolves and goats.Churches today, in my estimation, are filled with them.
People who have "made a decision for Christ" but have never been called into the fellowship of the saints through the preaching of God's word and the power of God changing their hearts.
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Understanding the NT re: eternal security
- Thread starter Samuels
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Amen.
But when one makes their salvation dependent upon their obedience, it is salvation by works, Samuels.
They have missed the one thing that it does depend upon...
Christ's obedience to the Law on our behalf, and His imputed righteousness given to all who truly believe on Him.
I agree.
There are many things that the Lord has to say about these subjects...
and all of His children will evidence these things at some point in their lives.
Again I agree.
Yes, there are many dire warnings in the New Testament...
Dire warnings that those who think they are saved had better examine themselves to see if they really are in the faith once delivered to the saints.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes, He does.
Yes, they will.
No I do not.
Yet, I also know that the invitations were already written ( Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, Hebrews 4:3, John 17:2, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 ).
If anyone is saved, it's because the Lord did it ( Psalms 65:4 ).
If anyone lives a holy life before God, it's because of the power of His Spirit within them ( Romans 8:13 ).
If anyone who professes Christ is cast into the Lake of Fire, it's because He never knew them ( Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 9:29-30 ) and they were never born again by the will of God ( John 3:3, John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
He didn't keep them by His power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
They tried to keep themselves in their "salvation" by their own power, "holy living", obedience to the letter of His commandments and so forth.
Judgment Day will be a very terrible day, my friend.
Many who think they are saved will protest to Him that they know Him and did many good things in His name....but in their actions they denied knowing Him.
For example, they did not receive all of His words.
Again, may God bless you with wisdom as you consider these things, and above all, His every word.
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Living in harmony with Christ's teachings (law of love) because of a changed heart is more like a cat acting like a cat because it is a cat. Judas, on the other hand, is an example of obedience performed by the flesh apart from the changed heart. It is nothing more than hypocrisy.
This is referring to when you INITIALLY were saved by grace through faith.
This does NOT refer to your entire walk with the Lord until death.
Because you must MAINTAIN your righteousness (i.e. your salvation) ...
E.G. Those who do NOT practice righteousness do NOT belong to God. (1 John 3:10).
My latest abomination was when Creflo Dollar said:
we (BACS?) cannot lose our righteousness!
In the end, to be declared righteous is to be declared saved.
God must see you as being in a righteous standing for you to enter heaven.
E.G. habitual (unrepentant) sinners have NOT maintained their righteousness,
NOR their salvation.
Yes, indeed this is obviously true!
So, I must insist that you TRASH some of your pre-conceived false doctrines,
and proceed with a totally OPEN heart into the reading of the NT.
Then perhaps, you might just begin to "see" ...
There are many dire warnings to everyone in the church
about the very real possibility of their losing salvation!
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EVERYONE has free will to sin, or not to sin.
Are you saying that God will prevent BACs from being habitual sinners?
And ...
Are you saying that ALL of those who are involved in habitual sin
are actually the unsaved deceived believers?
I am a living example of one who was born-again
(with all of the usual changes of ideas, attitudes, priorities, Bible reading, etc.),
and not only that but was baptized with the Holy Spirit (with the evidence of tongues)
... and proceeded (some years later) to back-slide into habitual sin.
Later, God managed to bring me back!
But, don't we have the free-will power to CHOOSE sin over obedience?
Does the Lord FORCE every BAC backslider to return to Him?
IMO, the dire warnings are there to help BACs stay on the straight and narrow,
to be a slave of obedience unto righteousness unto holiness (Romans 6:16-19).
Being a slave to these godly things is NOT a popular teaching,
and is NOT taught in very many churches.
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But, God's word warns that a blood-bought child of the living God
CAN (i.e. is able to) lose that which he/she never had the power to gain.
Or, God is a liar (because of what He has clearly taught in His NT).
A father can give a gift to his son, and then proceed to take it back (for some reason).
E.G. a BB gun.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
As far as I am aware,
I don't have any pre-concieved false doctrines, Samuels, as I don't listen to men.
I trust and believe God's word alone.
No one can "see" unless it has been given to them to do so ( Matthew 13:10-11 ).
No there are not.
No one who is written in the Book of Life will ever be cast into the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20:15 ).
Not one of Christ's genuine sheep, whom He died for, will ever be lost.
Perhaps someday you will show me where this "free moral agency" is found in the Scriptures, Samuels...
Until then, I'm convinced that man's will, according to God's perspective, is not free.
Rather, it is biased in favor of sin ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10:4, Psalms 14:1-3 ).
As an example of this, there is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins not ( Ecclesiastes 7:20 ).
In fact, we are so accustomed to sin, that the Lord asks us ( and then tells us ) this:
" Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." ( Jeremiah 13:23 ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes.
I am saying that there is a vast difference, spiritually, between a "wheat" and a "tare" ( Matthew 13 ).
See Romans 8...
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are truly in Christ Jesus.
They are new creatures in Christ ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 )...
They cannot and will not ever go back to what they were before He changed their hearts, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit cannot be undone, as it is said to be until the day of redemption ( Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30 ).
Yes.
I cannot see your heart, Samuels, but I can see that you are ( so far ) misunderstanding how God saves and keeps His own people.
By His own power and efforts, not our power and efforts.
It's either entirely of grace, or it is of grace and works...which negates grace ( Romans 11:5-6 ) and makes God a debtor and not a gift-giver ( Romans 4:4 ).
That is why I urge you to look at the Scriptures again, and carefully.
"Force"?
No.
Enable by the power of His Holy Spirit ( because in their flesh they cannot do it, Romans 7:14-25, Galatians 5:17, even though in their spirit they want to ) to live a life that is pleasing to Him?
Yes.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
No they are not.
Not one of Christ's genuine sheep ( BAC's ), whom He suffered and died for, will ever stray off the straight and narrow...
and being threatened with the impossibility of losing their salvation will never motivate them to stay on that narrow path.
Their love of Him and what He did for them, in addition to the power of God's Holy Spirit within them, is what will keep them walking that course.
No amount of trying to convince them that their sins are supposedly not forgiven, will ever compel them to serve Him out of an abject fear of losing their gift of eternal life.
They serve Him out of both a healthy respect of His power,
and a healthy knowledge of all that He has accomplished for them through His grace and mercy.
Ultimately, they obey Him out of love, knowledge and a confidence in His grace and kindness towards them... not out of mortal fear, terror and suspicion, wondering if they will ever endure to the end.
I think that if you truly understood Romans 1 through Romans 11 ( in addition to Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 ), you would see that, my friend.
God loves them with an everlasting love.
Someday I hope that you come to see how much He loves His children, whom He gave His precious Son for.
Not one of them will ever be plucked out of His hand ( John 10:28-29 ).
I agree.
Being indebted to righteousness ( Romans 6 ) is not a popular teaching in most of the places that call themselves churches today.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
No it does not.
Again, per John 6:37-40, not one of His actual sheep will be lost.
But many who think that they are saved will later find that they were never born again, were never foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and will never be glorified ( Romans 8:29-30 ).
Instead of being vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory, they are vessels of His wrath fitted to destruction ( Romans 9:14-24 ).
God, who cannot lie, promised those that truly believe on His Son eternal life ( not "probationary" life ), and has saved us and called us with an holy calling...
Which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ).
But not God the Father, whose gifts and calling are without repentance ( Him taking those gifts back, Romans 11:29 ).
He is not like human fathers, who can and do make mistakes and can and do take gifts back because sinful men ( and women ) can be capricious.
In addition, His true children cannot forfeit their salvation by already-forgiven sins ( Colossians 2:13-14 )...
Sins that are remembered by Him no more ( Hebrews 8:12, Isaiah 43:25, Jeremiah 31:34, Micah 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:17 ).
But those who profess Him with the lips while their hearts are far from Him, can and will be judged for their sins;
Sins that were never washed away by the blood of His dear Son.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
In that one thing, I agree with Creflo Dollar.
But having heard him and watched him on televsion, I hold that there are many other things that I do not see him being accurate to the Scriptures on.
I agree.
Again I agree.
Now...what does He look upon in order to gauge that righteousness?
Our own efforts, or Christ's efforts during His earthly life and on the cross on our behalf?
In order for it to be pure and wholly of grace, it cannot be anything that we ever did or possessed.
Samuels,
To me, that house you've built is, apparently, not on the sure Rock of Christ's righteousness alone, my friend.
It seems to be founded upon the shifting sands of your own good works and perceived righteousness.
The Lord explained this at great length to His servant Job, my friend.
Job's righteousness originated and was given to Him by God Himself...leaving nothing for Job to boast in save the Lord's grace and mercy towards him.
This is my last reply to you in this thread.
May God be pleased to show you where salvation and the gift of eternal life is actually founded...
On His grace through His Son, and upon nothing else.
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God does NOT practice righteousness for the BAC;
the BAC must do the practicing of righteousness for him/her self.
If you know that He is righteous,
you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1 John 2:29
Little children, let no one deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God,
nor is he who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:10
the BAC must do the practicing of righteousness for him/her self.
If you know that He is righteous,
you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1 John 2:29
Little children, let no one deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God,
nor is he who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:10
Galatians 3:1-9
O foolish Galatians (Samuels)! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
As long as you insist upon maintaining your salvation by works of the law, you are preaching the false gospel of the Judaizers in Galatia.
If we were saved by Grace, why would then God keep us by Law, seeing that He knows none will ever keep it as required?
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