Understanding the NT re: eternal security

[Samuels]

You cannot have saving faith if you think you can be lost.

Saving faith demands continuing belief, faith, trust, and obedience!
Haven't you heard that fear of God is the beginning wisdom?
This refers to a healthy fear of God's wrath
(which can be poured out upon believers)
and also a healthy reverence of God.

 

[37818]

Saving faith demands continuing belief, faith, trust, and obedience!

And that is requered in order to be given that gift.

 

[AustinC]

I think Donall and Conall's response to the Mormons is appropriate for this thread...

Enjoy...

 

[utilyan]

Yup:

• [Exo 4:14 NASB95] 14 Then the anger of the LORD burned against Moses, and He said, "Is there not your brother Aaron the Levite? I know that he speaks fluently. And moreover, behold, he is coming out to meet you; when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart.
• [Exo 32:11, 22 NASB95] 11 Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, "O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? ... 22 Aaron said, "Do not let the anger of my lord burn; you know the people yourself, that they are prone to evil.
• [Exo 34:6 NASB95] 6 Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;
• [Num 11:1, 10, 33 NASB95] 1 Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the LORD; and when the LORD heard [it,] His anger was kindled, and the fire of the LORD burned among them and consumed [some] of the outskirts of the camp. ... 10 Now Moses heard the people weeping throughout their families, each man at the doorway of his tent; and the anger of the LORD was kindled greatly, and Moses was displeased. ... 33 While the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the anger of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very severe plague.
• [Num 12:9 NASB95] 9 So the anger of the LORD burned against them and He departed.
• [Num 14:18 NASB95] 18 'The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear [the guilty,] visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth [generations.]'
• [Num 25:4 NASB95] 4 The LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of the people and execute them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the fierce anger of the LORD may turn away from Israel."
• [Num 32:13-14 NASB95] 13 "So the LORD'S anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the LORD was destroyed. 14 "Now behold, you have risen up in your fathers' place, a brood of sinful men, to add still more to the burning anger of the LORD against Israel.
• [Deu 4:25 NASB95] 25 "When you become the father of children and children's children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD your God [so as] to provoke Him to anger,
• [Deu 6:15 NASB95] 15 for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth.
• [Deu 7:4 NASB95] 4 "For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods; then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you and He will quickly destroy you.
• [Deu 9:18-19 NASB95] 18 "I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water, because of all your sin which you had committed in doing what was evil in the sight of the LORD to provoke Him to anger. 19 "For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure with which the LORD was wrathful against you in order to destroy you, but the LORD listened to me that time also.
• [Deu 11:17 NASB95] 17 "Or the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and He will shut up the heavens so that there will be no rain and the ground will not yield its fruit; and you will perish quickly from the good land which the LORD is giving you.
• [Deu 13:17 NASB95] 17 "Nothing from that which is put under the ban shall cling to your hand, in order that the LORD may turn from His burning anger and show mercy to you, and have compassion on you and make you increase, just as He has sworn to your fathers,
• [Deu 29:20, 23-24, 27-28 NASB95] 20 "The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven. ... 23 'All its land is brimstone and salt, a burning waste, unsown and unproductive, and no grass grows in it, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and in His wrath.' 24 "All the nations will say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?' ... 27 'Therefore, the anger of the LORD burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book; 28 and the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger and in fury and in great wrath, and cast them into another land, as [it is] this day.'
• [Deu 31:29 NASB95] 29 "For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands."

(and many, many more ...)

Then I guess God is controlled by what men do.

 

[atpollard]

Then I guess God is controlled by what men do.

Unlikely.
"Omniscience" makes it hard to catch God by surprise, so like Joseph's brothers, God just builds human disobedience into His plan (without the sin of selling Joseph, we would have no Passover and no Last Supper/Passover lamb of God).

 

[Yeshua1]

Unlikely.
"Omniscience" makes it hard to catch God by surprise, so like Joseph's brothers, God just builds human disobedience into His plan (without the sin of selling Joseph, we would have no Passover and no Last Supper/Passover lamb of God).

God never gets caught with" did not see that coming" moment!

 

[utilyan]

Unlikely.
"Omniscience" makes it hard to catch God by surprise, so like Joseph's brothers, God just builds human disobedience into His plan (without the sin of selling Joseph, we would have no Passover and no Last Supper/Passover lamb of God).

Your making God out to be weaker as if dependent on disobedience, rather than victory in spite of disobedience.

God never gets caught with" did not see that coming" moment!

Jeremiah 7

31They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of Ben-hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My [m]mind.

It didn't even cross his mind that they would do such things.

IT was asked.
Does the human will subject God's will under it's supreme authority?
I asked if God gets angry at sinner's sin? Answer given was :YES
Ergo plainly God is controlled by what Men do.

The issue here is with some present Calvinists are going to have to reinvent the wheel.

Its called anthropomorphisms. God doesn't hate, Doesn't get Angry. Immutable, Impassible. <-- Even JOHN CALVIN wrote about this stuff.

My opinion is you guys have poorly thought out ideas about what is power, what is control, Desire/Wants, and sovereignty.

Its like applying what a secular man would do if he were God, from a perspective of what a secular man would consider absolute power.

Is God TRAPPED where it is impossible to have a WANT and DESIRE to occur without a Direct force "CONTROL"?

Can I desire or want a birthday cake that was given to me without me FORCING CONTROL for it?

 

[Yeshua1]

Your making God out to be weaker as if dependent on disobedience, rather than victory in spite of disobedience.




Jeremiah 7

31They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of Ben-hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My [m]mind.

It didn't even cross his mind that they would do such things.

IT was asked.
Does the human will subject God's will under it's supreme authority?
I asked if God gets angry at sinner's sin? Answer given was :YES
Ergo plainly God is controlled by what Men do.

The issue here is with some present Calvinists are going to have to reinvent the wheel.

Its called anthropomorphisms. God doesn't hate, Doesn't get Angry. Immutable, Impassible. <-- Even JOHN CALVIN wrote about this stuff.

My opinion is you guys have poorly thought out ideas about what is power, what is control, Desire/Wants, and sovereignty.

Its like applying what a secular man would do if he were God, from a perspective of what a secular man would consider absolute power.

Is God TRAPPED where it is impossible to have a WANT and DESIRE to occur without a Direct force "CONTROL"?

Can I desire or want a birthday cake that was given to me without me FORCING CONTROL for it?

God is not saying that what they did he failed to notice, but that it was not commanded by Him to be done!

 

[atpollard]

Your making God out to be weaker as if dependent on disobedience, rather than victory in spite of disobedience.

Genesis 50:20 [NKJV]
20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.

It says what it says.
I am guilty of believing the word of God.
Why do you deny what it says?

 

[utilyan]

Genesis 50:20 [NKJV]
20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.

It says what it says.
I am guilty of believing the word of God.
Why do you deny what it says?

Its like someone who meant to hit you with their car and run over a bear chasing you.

I think its funny you guys always pick up the Joseph story, when in reality its all evil acts. Look at Jesus being nailed to the cross, it was meant as an evil act, it really is a sin. What they meant for evil in killing Jesus, God used for Good.

Not Jews, Not Jesus, not anyone ever expresses God being dependent of evil.

 

[atpollard]

I think its funny you guys always pick up the Joseph story, when in reality its all evil acts. Look at Jesus being nailed to the cross, it was meant as an evil act, it really is a sin. What they meant for evil in killing Jesus, God used for Good.

Not Jews, Not Jesus, not anyone ever expresses God being dependent of evil.

I agree in general, it is just the subtle tone of your word choices that I find dissonant with “God works all things after the council of His will” [Ephesians 1:11]. God did not just “use” the evil of men wanting to kill Jesus, God predestined it and Christ chose it. God is not “dependent” upon evil, God ordains all that comes to pass ... lifting His hand of restraint where it serves His purposes. [John 19:11]

 

[tyndale1946]

I agree in general, it is just the subtle tone of your word choices that I find dissonant with “God works all things after the council of His will” [Ephesians 1:11]. God did not just “use” the evil of men wanting to kill Jesus, God predestined it and Christ chose it. God is not “dependent” upon evil, God ordains all that comes to pass ... lifting His hand of restraint where it serves His purposes.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

And one of my favorites

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If not for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, where does Salvation come from?... Brother Glen

 

[37818]

Obeying the Lord's commandments is NOT salvation by works,
but it is simply obedience!

John 14 ... Those who love Jesus will obey His commandments.
John 15 ... Those who are Jesus' fr

There are the commandments of the Law, Romans 3:31, James 2:10, Romans 3:19, Galatians 3:24-25 and Galatians 2:21. And there are the new commandments of Christ, John 12:50, John 3:16, John 13:34-35 as stated, 1 John 3:23.

 

[1689Dave]

Saving faith demands continuing belief, faith, trust, and obedience!
Haven't you heard that fear of God is the beginning wisdom?
This refers to a healthy fear of God's wrath
(which can be poured out upon believers)
and also a healthy reverence of God.

But you cannot have saving faith if you think you can be lost. How can you have faith at all? It is because you don't trust yourself thinking faith comes from you and not God. This is not biblical saving faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

Its like someone who meant to hit you with their car and run over a bear chasing you.

I think its funny you guys always pick up the Joseph story, when in reality its all evil acts. Look at Jesus being nailed to the cross, it was meant as an evil act, it really is a sin. What they meant for evil in killing Jesus, God used for Good.

Not Jews, Not Jesus, not anyone ever expresses God being dependent of evil.

God the father determined that the messiah would die on that Cross, and sinners plotted to bring that to pass!

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree in general, it is just the subtle tone of your word choices that I find dissonant with “God works all things after the council of His will” [Ephesians 1:11]. God did not just “use” the evil of men wanting to kill Jesus, God predestined it and Christ chose it. God is not “dependent” upon evil, God ordains all that comes to pass ... lifting His hand of restraint where it serves His purposes. [John 19:11]

The Cross ultimate proof of that truth, as the Trinity Themselves ordained that the Messiah would die for the sins of His people, and yet sinners willing did as they desired to get Him crucified!

 

[Samuels]

But you cannot have saving faith if you think you can be lost.

A covenant requires both parties to do their part for it to work.
And a saving covenant requires both parties to do their part.

We BACs must co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit
... as He strives to sanctify us unto holiness
... during the process of sanctification.

The new covenant has many IFs and BUTs in it.

Please, discard your false beliefs, false doctrines, etc.
and OPEN your heart and mind to spiritual Truth, which is found in the NT.

 

[AustinC]

A covenant requires both parties to do their part for it to work.
And a saving covenant requires both parties to do their part.

We BACs must co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit
... as He strives to sanctify us unto holiness
... during the process of sanctification.

The new covenant has many IFs and BUTs in it.

Please, discard your false beliefs, false doctrines, etc.
and OPEN your heart and mind to spiritual Truth, which is found in the NT.

Hebrews 6:13-20 disagrees with your assertion.
For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise. For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

God's covenant with Abraham only required God to pass through the sacrifice, not Abraham.

You add what God does not add. You require salvation by law, apart from grace.

 

[Samuels]

You require salvation by law, apart from grace.

BACs must depend on God's grace to be saved.
I even believe that God must first make a BIG-TIME move on behalf of the non-believer!
Witness Lydia in Acts 16:14.

Butski, BACs have the free-will to reject God's glorious grace
and, for example, live a life of habitual sin.
This would be rejecting the requirements of the new covenant:
true saving faith = belief-faith-trust + obedience + righteousness + holiness.
Please see Romans 6:16-19, which agrees with many NT verses/passages).

 

[1689Dave]

A covenant requires both parties to do their part for it to work.
And a saving covenant requires both parties to do their part.

We BACs must co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit
... as He strives to sanctify us unto holiness
... during the process of sanctification.

The new covenant has many IFs and BUTs in it.

Please, discard your false beliefs, false doctrines, etc.
and OPEN your heart and mind to spiritual Truth, which is found in the NT.

Does the New Covenant require salvation by works? Not according to Paul. The Born Again believe as a result of God's saving grace. We are not born by the will of the flesh.

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:13 (KJV 1900)