Unelect Person Desiring Salvation

[MorseOp]

The Father draws only the Elect? That's up for study surely.

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
(Heb 6:4-6)

Fishing here abit actually.

Heb. 6 is describing those who never truly sought God. They had a hidden agenda from the beggining.

 

[convicted1]

I love that verse. In fact, it comes to mind every time I gaze across the night sky with my telescope. Our minds cannot beging to comprehend the glory, majesty, love, and every other concept we can think of about the Lord, and no doubt some we cannot think of.

Also, in relation to this thread is that God has got everything worked out regardless of what we think about it.

And when you look through your telescope, how often do you see the "witch" flying in front of the moon? I heard that she was your senior prom date. They said she was long-nosed with a big ole wart on the end of it. She was bucked toothed, knock-kneed, blind in one eye, walked with a limp, wore thick horn-rimmed glasses, cackled when she laughed, loved black cats for some reason, wore weird looking hats, and these were her GOOD attributes. They said when you broke up with her, and took her IDENTICAL twin sister, she was never the same.....

 

[saturneptune]

And when you look through your telescope, how often do you see the "witch" flying in front of the moon? I heard that she was your senior prom date. They said she was long-nosed with a big ole wart on the end of it. She was bucked toothed, knock-kneed, blind in one eye, walked with a limp, wore thick horn-rimmed glasses, cackled when she laughed, loved black cats for some reason, wore weird looking hats, and these were her GOOD attributes. They said when you broke up with her, and took her IDENTICAL twin sister, she was never the same.....

It is a lot cheaper to go on a date on a broom than a car. It is just that parking becomes very awkward. LOL

 

[kyredneck]

For Calvinists, is it possible for an unelect person to desire salvation? It is just a question. Please do not let this degenerate into a Calvin-free will debate.

It's impossible for someone who is spiritually dead to desire salvation.

SM hits the nail on the head.

The more pertinent question would have been, 'Is it possible for an unregenerate person to desire salvation'? And the answer is NO!

"Concerning the rich young ruler of whom it is said Christ "loved him" (Mark 10:21), we fully believe that he was one of God's elect and was "saved" sometime after his interview with our Lord. . . . It is written, "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," and this man certainly did "come" to Him." —Arthur Walkington Pink, The Sovereignty of God

Thanks so much for that verse. I never paid any attention to the words "loved him." That is very edifying and comforting.

If the young man had never asked "What lack I yet?" [Mt 19:20], maybe he wouldn't have gotten the call to become a disciple, which is exactly what the passage is about, discipleship, NOT spiritual life.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1792830&postcount=13

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1717418&highlight=home#post1717418

 

[kyredneck]

The Father draws only the Elect? That's up for study surely.

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
(Heb 6:4-6)

Fishing here abit actually.

Heb. 6 is describing those who never truly sought God. They had a hidden agenda from the beggining.

Heb 6 is concerning those "who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come....":

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1473753#post1473753

 

[SovereignMercy]

BUT they did NOT have faith. The writer is not speaking of believers. Keep on reading.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Believers produce fruit and endure because of God. Period.

If anyone is interested I have a radio program every Sunday morning at 9:00 eastern. I'm starting the Book of Revelation this morning.

http://www.rheacountyradio.com/

 

[kyredneck]

BUT they did NOT have faith. The writer is not speaking of believers. Keep on reading.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

You've kinda sorta mixed other passages in there with Heb 6 haven't you? The letter AND the warning against unbelief and falling away was to Hebrew Christians, period:

Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3:12

Believers produce fruit and endure because of God. Period.

This promotes the totally false premise that 'true Christians' can never make shipwreck of their faith. Why these admonitions then?:

......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23

Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14

If anyone is interested I have a radio program every Sunday morning at 9:00 eastern. I'm starting the Book of Revelation this morning.

http://www.rheacountyradio.com/

Not interested.

 

[Van]

I see we again have 5 pages of shuck and jive. Of course according to Calvinism, no unregenerate person would seek God or trust in Christ. They will cite Romans 3:10-11 and say no one seeks God, meaning in their rewrite, no one seeks God at any time when unregenerate. Therefore they claim the rich young ruler had been regenerated, but the irresistible grace had not somehow been applied full strength so he was able to resist due to his love of worldly wealth, but somewhere down the line, they claim a conversion never mentioned in the Bible. Any doctrine that relies of extra-biblical invention is mistaken.

Matthew 13:1-26 teaches that some men, the first soil, have total spiritual inability, but the other three soils have some spiritual ability. Regeneration is not mentioned, yet Calvinism says the fourth soil was regenerated. However they have no consistent story for soils two and three which were seeking God and willing to trust in Christ.

Bottom line, Calvinism claims no unregenerate person is able to seek God and trust in Christ, but the Bible teaches the opposite.

 

[Van]

I see the old "made shipwreck of their faith" mentioned. Many non-Calvinists believe Calvinism has made shipwreck of the gospel, but that does not equate with loss of salvation. It just hinders the ministry of Christ.

If we look at 1 Timothy 1:18-20 we see those who made shipwreck of their faith, were blasphemers, or to put it another way, were saying untrue things about God. In this case, they were teaching the resurrection had already taken place upsetting the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:17-19.)

 

[OldRegular]

For Calvinists, is it possible for an unelect person to desire salvation? It is just a question. Please do not let this degenerate into a Calvin-free will debate.

Very interesting thread S/N. I believe that Scripture addresses this problem in the parable of the sower. Jesus Christ demonstrate the difference between the effect of the gospel on the unregenerate man and the regenerate man in this parable.

Matthew 13:3-9
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Jesus Christ then explains the parable to His disciples and that includes us.

Matthew 13: 18-23
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Now statements will be made, and have been made, saying what the unregenerate can or cannot do. I believe that Jesus Christ shows in the above parable the truth of what the unregenerate man may do and the final outcome!

In this parable four people heard the Gospel but in only one, the last, was the Gospel truly effective. This fourth man received the seed into good ground, ground that had been prepared through regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Someone questioned the use of the word salvation in the OP rather than desiring Jesus Christ. Actually for Christians there is really no difference. Scripture tells us:

Acts 4:10-12
10. Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[Aaron]

And who are the willing?

Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; in the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning. You have the dew of Your youth.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Faith is the work of God not men.

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Absolutely :thumbs:

The question was can the non-elect desire salvation. The implication being that one could desire to be saved and salvation withheld because he is non-elect. I think the verse answers the question.

 

[Van]

You can count on OR to post old and discredited chestnuts, like the fourth soil had been regenerated. Read it carefully folks, no mention of regeneration will be found, Calvinism just pours it in to rewrite the parable.

1) First the parable demonstrates that Calvinism's claim of no one seeks God at any time is utterly false.

2) Second, the parable teaches Jesus had to speak in parables in order to preclude unregenerate men from understanding the gospel. Oh you did not see that part, i.e. verse 13? Now why would OR edit to exclude what demonstrates the falsehood of the T of the Tulip. Go figure.

 

[saturneptune]

You can count on OR to post old and discredited chestnuts, like the fourth soil had been regenerated. Read it carefully folks, no mention of regeneration will be found, Calvinism just pours it in to rewrite the parable.

1) First the parable demonstrates that Calvinism's claim of no one seeks God at any time is utterly false.

2) Second, the parable teaches Jesus had to speak in parables in order to preclude unregenerate men from understanding the gospel. Oh you did not see that part, i.e. verse 13? Now why would OR edit to exclude what demonstrates the falsehood of the T of the Tulip. Go figure.

Did you read the first post of the thread? The one that asked that this not degenerate into a Calvin-free will back and forth? Thank you for not listening.

 

[OldRegular]

For Calvinists, is it possible for an unelect person to desire salvation? It is just a question. Please do not let this degenerate into a Calvin-free will debate.

S/N My initial comment still stands. You have presented a very profound question that needs to be addressed in a civil manner. Perhaps we can all learn something edifying to God if not to each other!

Jesus Christ taught what He taught in the parable of the sower. All four men apparently sought/wanted what was offered, only one actually received it. That we cannot deny regardless of our doctrine of Salvation!

 

[psalms109:31]

I see we again have 5 pages of shuck and jive. Of course according to Calvinism, no unregenerate person would seek God or trust in Christ. They will cite Romans 3:10-11 and say no one seeks God, meaning in their rewrite, no one seeks God at any time when unregenerate. Therefore they claim the rich young ruler had been regenerated, but the irresistible grace had not somehow been applied full strength so he was able to resist due to his love of worldly wealth, but somewhere down the line, they claim a conversion never mentioned in the Bible. Any doctrine that relies of extra-biblical invention is mistaken.

Matthew 13:1-26 teaches that some men, the first soil, have total spiritual inability, but the other three soils have some spiritual ability. Regeneration is not mentioned, yet Calvinism says the fourth soil was regenerated. However they have no consistent story for soils two and three which were seeking God and willing to trust in Christ.

Bottom line, Calvinism claims no unregenerate person is able to seek God and trust in Christ, but the Bible teaches the opposite.

No one does seek God at any time, not the one true God. That is why He sent us out with the words of life and seek them. There is not one of us who is righteous not one, but praise God that Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but sinners. When you look at Paul's life a service of seeking others we know he did not say that word for what some are using it for, but to send us out to continue what he had started. What the word lead him to do.

 

[saturneptune]

S/N My initial comment still stands. You have presented a very profound question that needs to be addressed in a civil manner. Perhaps we can all learn something edifying to God if not to each other!

Jesus Christ taught what He taught in the parable of the sower. All four men apparently sought/wanted what was offered, only one actually received it. That we cannot deny regardless of our doctrine of Salvation!

I totally agree and never related the parable to this subject. Actually my comment was directed at the person I quoted. To tell the truth, on that parable, the debate has always been, that I have heard, was one or two of the four saved.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

Did you read the first post of the thread? The one that asked that this not degenerate into a Calvin-free will back and forth? Thank you for not listening.

I am not interested in these sort of bully-boy attacks. The topic was addressed in Post # 48.. OR presented another view of Matthew 13:1-23, and I pointed out that verse 13 shattered his view.

Unelect people desire salvation as demonstrated by Matthew 13:1-23. Our individual election occurs after we trust in Christ because we are chosen through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

No one does seek God at any time, not the one true God. That is why He sent us out with the words of life and seek them. There is not one of us who is righteous not one, but praise God that Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but sinners. When you look at Paul's life a service of seeking others we know he did not say that word for what some are using it for, but to send us out to continue what he had started. What the word lead him to do.

Of course some unelect people seek God and trust to varying degrees in Christ, Matthew 13:1-26. Unrighteous people are the only ones who seek God, to be righteous means the person has God and God has him or her.

Many verses tell us of large crowds of people coming to hear Jesus or Peter or Paul or Apollo and so forth. You are right many held a wrong view of God, thus Paul taught from the perspective of the "unknown God."

Jesus told us to seek the kingdom of God first, and so the unsaved should do it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Did you read the first post of the thread? The one that asked that this not degenerate into a Calvin-free will back and forth? Thank you for not listening.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! :applause:

 

[Van]

Unelect people desire salvation as demonstrated by Matthew 13:1-23. Our individual election occurs after we trust in Christ because we are chosen through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Many verses tell us of large crowds of people coming to hear Jesus or Peter or Paul or Apollo and so forth. Many in the groups held a wrong view of God, thus Paul taught from the perspective of the "unknown God."