Unelect Person Desiring Salvation

[saturneptune]

I am not interested in these sort of bully-boy attacks. The topic was addressed in Post # 48.. OR presented another view of Matthew 13:1-23, and I pointed out that verse 13 shattered his view.

Unelect people desire salvation as demonstrated by Matthew 13:1-23. Our individual election occurs after we trust in Christ because we are chosen through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

I am not interested in what you think. I started the thread and asked to leave out the garbage of a free will-Calvin knock down drag out. If you want to do that, there are 10,000 other threads that can accomidate you, but not this one.

 

[convicted1]

It is a lot cheaper to go on a date on a broom than a car. It is just that parking becomes very awkward. LOL

Two questions for you. When you two went out on your dates, who took care of her pet monkeys? And, how did she clean up, seeing that water did something odd to her?

 

[convicted1]

I am not interested in what you think. I started the thread and asked to leave out the garbage of a free will-Calvin knock down drag out. If you want to do that, there are 10,000 other threads that can accomidate you, but not this one.

This thread will be closed before you get what you desire. That's why I try to shy away from the C vs. A battle royals.........

 

[saturneptune]

Two questions for you. When you two went out on your dates, who took care of her pet monkeys? And, how did she clean up, seeing that water did something odd to her?

I wondered why she stunk so bad. Barney Frank came over and took care of the pet monkeys. Like I said, the most awkward part was going to the back seat of the broom and kissing that ugly face.

 

[convicted1]

I wondered why she stunk so bad. Barney Frank came over and took care of the pet monkeys. Like I said, the most awkward part was going to the back seat of the broom and kissing that ugly face.

You must have felt bad. You couldn't even give her a "wet juicy kiss" w/o her lips melting......

 

[The Archangel]

All people desire salvation. Though it is defined differently, and in non-biblical ways, the Buddhist, the Hindu, the Muslim, the Atheist all desire salvation.

Christians desire salvation too. The difference, though, is this: For the Christian, salvation is the byproduct of desiring Christ and repenting and believing in Him.

Many so-called Christians, I'm afraid, desire salvation, but they don't desire Christ. Many so-called Christians want heaven, as opposed to hell, but they don't care if Christ is there.

I saw this on Ligon Duncan's twitter feed today: Samuel Rutherford, on Christ: "I am so in love with His love, that if His love were not in heaven, I would not be willing to go there."

How apropos for this discussion.

The fact of the matter is that everyone desires salvation. Not everyone desires Christ. There is a difference. Desiring salvation makes salvation your "god" and having Christ is not and will never be a byproduct of a false god. However, desiring Christ and having Him is worth giving up everything, and the byproduct of having Christ is salvation and heaven--which is wherever He is.

Many just aren't worshiping the real thing.

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

All people desire salvation. Though it is defined differently, and in non-biblical ways, the Buddhist, the Hindu, the Muslim, the Atheist all desire salvation.

Christians desire salvation too. The difference, though, is this: For the Christian, salvation is the byproduct of desiring Christ and repenting and believing in Him.

Many so-called Christians, I'm afraid, desire salvation, but they don't desire Christ. Many so-called Christians want heaven, as opposed to hell, but they don't care if Christ is there.

I saw this on Ligon Duncan's twitter feed today: Samuel Rutherford, on Christ: "I am so in love with His love, that if His love were not in heaven, I would not be willing to go there."

How apropos for this discussion.

The fact of the matter is that everyone desires salvation. Not everyone desires Christ. There is a difference. Desiring salvation makes salvation your "god" and having Christ is not and will never be a byproduct of a false god. However, desiring Christ and having Him is worth giving up everything, and the byproduct of having Christ is salvation and heaven--which is wherever He is.

Many just aren't worshiping the real thing.

The Archangel

This seems to be so in many ways....Like Michael Hortons Christless Christianity laments.

 

[psalms109:31]

A non elect knows there is a God even atheist come to a point to deny this, but at one time knew there is a God. They desired salvation. Most, really the majority of people, are sheep following someone or something. There is only a few leaders, but even these leaders was a sheep once, but they became a leader of what they have been following. When the blind lead the blind they both fall into the pit.

We Christians no longer of the world in it not of it are to plant the seed and water it. We do have a part in His plan, but He causes the increase, we are just the messenger of His words. God cursed us man to work the field and God as a man started it all off. I believe we are elected in Christ, so at some point God turned a stone into His child by the working of the Holy Spirit in the seed God gave us to plant and water. There is only one road to God and it is Jesus, the bridge to cross the great divide.

 

[saturneptune]

All people desire salvation. Though it is defined differently, and in non-biblical ways, the Buddhist, the Hindu, the Muslim, the Atheist all desire salvation.

Christians desire salvation too. The difference, though, is this: For the Christian, salvation is the byproduct of desiring Christ and repenting and believing in Him.

Many so-called Christians, I'm afraid, desire salvation, but they don't desire Christ. Many so-called Christians want heaven, as opposed to hell, but they don't care if Christ is there.

I saw this on Ligon Duncan's twitter feed today: Samuel Rutherford, on Christ: "I am so in love with His love, that if His love were not in heaven, I would not be willing to go there."

How apropos for this discussion.

The fact of the matter is that everyone desires salvation. Not everyone desires Christ. There is a difference. Desiring salvation makes salvation your "god" and having Christ is not and will never be a byproduct of a false god. However, desiring Christ and having Him is worth giving up everything, and the byproduct of having Christ is salvation and heaven--which is wherever He is.

Many just aren't worshiping the real thing.

The Archangel

Very good post. This kind of reminds me of another thread on Joel Olsteen.

 

[webdog]

For Calvinists, is it possible for an unelect person to desire salvation? It is just a question. Please do not let this degenerate into a Calvin-free will debate.

Considering the scriptural understanding of the elect refers to Jewish believers, absolutely.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

I am not interested in what you think. I started the thread and asked to leave out the garbage of a free will-Calvin knock down drag out. If you want to do that, there are 10,000 other threads that can accomidate you, but not this one.

S/N, did you read post #48?

Your thread is based on Calvinism's claim of Total Spiritual Inability, but then you have the unmitigated gall, the unabashed temerity to ask for no one to point out it is false.

The answer is Calvinism claims the unelect do not seek God, which is a mistaken view of scripture.

Compulsionists like to think God compels everything, and modeling that mistaken model, they try to compel others to be conformed to their mistaken views. Hence they behave like bully-boys, rather than evangelists who try to accommodate the views of others so that they may win some.

 

[convicted1]

If anyone desires salvation, this desire is first set up by God drawing them. Not one sinner will desire Him until He first draws them, IMHHO.


And I'm in the FW camp...........

 

[kyredneck]

If anyone desires salvation, this desire is first set up by God drawing them. Not one sinner will desire Him until He first draws them, IMHHO.


And I'm in the FW camp...........

Willis, do you all sing this hymn?:

I Will Arise and Go to Jesus

Excerpt:

“All the fitness He requireth, is to feel your need of Him.”


And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. Jn 3:14,15

And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21:8

The brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten.

.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Him.

 

[saturneptune]

Foul Ball

S/N, did you read post #48?

Your thread is based on Calvinism's claim of Total Spiritual Inability, but then you have the unmitigated gall, the unabashed temerity to ask for no one to point out it is false.

The answer is Calvinism claims the unelect do not seek God, which is a mistaken view of scripture.

Compulsionists like to think God compels everything, and modeling that mistaken model, they try to compel others to be conformed to their mistaken views. Hence they behave like bully-boys, rather than evangelists who try to accommodate the views of others so that they may win some.

My thread is not based on anything, nor does it have an agenda. It is a question. My personal opinion is that those who engage in the Calvin-free will debates twenty four hours a day have lost their ever loving minds on both sides.

First of all, your second paragraph is opinion, not Scripture. What is also false in your post is that you seperate evangelism from Calvinism, and nothing could be further from the truth. If you and these other theological geniuses would obey the command of the Lord and go, tell, teach, and baptise, and let the Lord worry about the rest, the nonsense would cease. I am sure God really cares what man thinks about His inner motives and thought processes.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

My thread is not based on anything, nor does it have an agenda. It is a question. My personal opinion is that those who engage in the Calvin-free will debates twenty four hours a day have lost their ever loving minds on both sides.

First of all, your second paragraph is opinion, not Scripture. What is also false in your post is that you seperate evangelism from Calvinism, and nothing could be further from the truth. If you and these other theological geniuses would obey the command of the Lord and go, tell, teach, and baptise, and let the Lord worry about the rest, the nonsense would cease. I am sure God really cares what man thinks about His inner motives and thought processes.

Arminians accept that unelect seek God, a free will decision. Therefore, while you deny the obvious, your thread is based on the Calvinistic view that the unelect do not seek God. I answered that Calvinism claims the unelect do not seek God, but that it was a mistaken view of scripture and supported that view with Matthew 13:1-23.

Here is the second paragraph of post #48:

Matthew 13:1-26 teaches that some men, the first soil, have total spiritual inability, but the other three soils have some spiritual ability. Regeneration is not mentioned, yet Calvinism says the fourth soil was regenerated. However they have no consistent story for soils two and three which were seeking God and willing to trust in Christ.

You can call this opinion, but that is just evasion. Unelect men were seeking salvation when they received the gospel with joy. Calvinism is simply a mistaken view of scripture, one that denies the very words of Christ, such as men receiving the gospel with joy, rather than being hostile to God at all times.

 

[saturneptune]

Arminians accept that unelect seek God, a free will decision. Therefore, while you deny the obvious, your thread is based on the Calvinistic view that the unelect do not seek God. I answered that Calvinism claims the unelect do not seek God, but that it was a mistaken view of scripture and supported that view with Matthew 13:1-23.

Here is the second paragraph of post #48:

Matthew 13:1-26 teaches that some men, the first soil, have total spiritual inability, but the other three soils have some spiritual ability. Regeneration is not mentioned, yet Calvinism says the fourth soil was regenerated. However they have no consistent story for soils two and three which were seeking God and willing to trust in Christ.

You can call this opinion, but that is just evasion. Unelect men were seeking salvation when they received the gospel with joy. Calvinism is simply a mistaken view of scripture, one that denies the very words of Christ, such as men receiving the gospel with joy, rather than being hostile to God at all times.

Forget Calvin and Calvinism just for ten seconds, and focus on the parable you brought up. There has been debate for centuries about the number of the four that were saved. It is usually one or two. One is obviously saved, the good seed. One is obviously lost, the seed that the birds came and ate that fell along the path. The seed along the rocky path was received with joy, but was in shallow soil, did not take root, and because of trouble and persecution, he falls away. The man who got the seed that fell among thorns heard the word, but worldly things are at the center of his heart. This person did not receive the word with joy, and the parable does not say "he fell away." So to me, this is the second person that is definitely not saved. The debate has centered around the person who received the word with joy, but had no roots and fell away. The fact that he received the word with joy does not mean he put his faith in Jesus Christ. The roots were shallow. Jesus said I am the Vine, and you are the branches. This is an eternal source of life, not a temporary condition. In my opinion, and I stress that word, this person was not saved. Simon the magician in Acts received the word with interest, but in the end, wanted to purchase the power of the Holy Spirit. Notice also in verse 29 of Chapter 13 (Matt) that there is wheat among the weeds that will be sorted out.

 

[OldRegular]

I love that verse. In fact, it comes to mind every time I gaze across the night sky with my telescope. Our minds cannot beging to comprehend the glory, majesty, love, and every other concept we can think of about the Lord, and no doubt some we cannot think of.

Also, in relation to this thread is that God has got everything worked out regardless of what we think about it.

Aren't you glad we worship God who does!:love2:

 

[psalms109:31]

It amazes me how much men are wise in their own eyes a linear creature trying to understand one who is every where at all times. Men who live in one space in time a past we can not change but learn from a future that can only be affected by what we do right now, because we can prepare, but do not know what the future brings.

My scripture teaches me that all men have a hard heart that the seed cannot penetrate and need a new heart. We are not the same. It is easier for those who have been taught right to love God and others as themselves or to be taught you was chosen before even the foundation of the world all your life before you even trusted in Jesus and become a new creation and being born again. To the rest of man kind that have been taught all their life you are in this by yourself and you need to take care of number one, if not you will be trudged and trampled on, it is more difficult for them to trust in someone else to save them.

The only good soil is Jesus Christ where we are given a new heart in and through Him can we produce good fruit, until you come to Christ you are dead. until you eat the flesh and drink His blood you have no life in you. The only one will come is those who listen and learn not those who trust in their own understanding. God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned those who lean on their own understanding. Only Jesus Christ can remove your veil turn to Him and He will lead you deaf, dumb, blind men to the truth.

 

[convicted1]

Willis, do you all sing this hymn?:

I Will Arise and Go to Jesus

Excerpt:

“All the fitness He requireth, is to feel your need of Him.”


And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. Jn 3:14,15

And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21:8

The brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten.

.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Him.

I haven't heard that song, neither had I even seen that title before. Some of the other ORB assocs. may sign it, but I haven't heard it.


The thing is, that before we can react God must act. We, as sinners, had no desire to be saved prior to God drawing us....or at least that's the way it was with me. I wanted to worship myself. I loved to talk to people about the bible, but when they tried to convert me, I'd shy away. I didn't want their religion shoved on me. Now, when God broke me down like a "polk-stalk" shotgun, that was a different story altogeher. When God turned me, I was turned.....it's that simple.

 

[saturneptune]

I haven't heard that song, neither had I even seen that title before. Some of the other ORB assocs. may sign it, but I haven't heard it.


The thing is, that before we can react God must act. We, as sinners, had no desire to be saved prior to God drawing us....or at least that's the way it was with me. I wanted to worship myself. I loved to talk to people about the bible, but when they tried to convert me, I'd shy away. I didn't want their religion shoved on me. Now, when God broke me down like a "polk-stalk" shotgun, that was a different story altogeher. When God turned me, I was turned.....it's that simple.

But at the Sem in arry, they told us that blah, blah, blah, blah................verily, verily. (and behold)