Universal Church

[Iconoclast]

From A Baptist Cathechism with Commentary

Both Roman and Protestant theology confuse “the Church,” either visible or invisible, with the “kingdom of God” or the “kingdom of heaven” and “kingdom of Christ.” A thorough study will reveal that these final three are ultimately synonymous terms.
Romanism errs in viewing the church as a universal, visible entity, co–extensive with the State and its spiritual counterpart. If “the church” and “the kingdom” are synonymous and coextensive, then if one is not in the “true church” he is excluded from the kingdom and thus unsaved.

Protestantism errs in believing the church to be composed of both saved and unsaved in its “visible” aspect, thus either identifying it with the parables of the kingdom (which emphasize the mixed nature of the kingdom into the good and the bad), or retreating to a “universal, invisible church” synonymous with a spiritual kingdom composed only of the truly regenerate. The essence of all such error is found in a radical departure from the New Testament usage of the term “church” [ekklēsia].
.
The New Testament church and the kingdom of God are closely related, yet distinct.
A thorough study will reveal that the kingdom of God is a comprehensive term for the sovereign rule of God and the realm over which this rule extends. Scripturally, the kingdom has past (prophetical), present (historical) and future (eschatological) aspects. Thus, the kingdom of God is universal and includes all believers.

It also includes a realm in which the power of Divine rule is experienced. These qualities have led some to confuse the kingdom with the church. The distinctions between the kingdom of God and the New Testament church may be seen by contrast.

Men “see” and “enter into” the kingdom of God by regeneration.
This is quite apart from any direct connection with a church, but is concerned with the sovereign grace and power of God alone in its realization (Jn. 3:3, 5).

Entrance into a New Testament church is upon the scriptural prerequisites of conversion, baptism and the vote of the church (Acts 2:41).

The kingdom is universal;

the church is necessarily local [i.e., a body, assembly, congregation. Such language would be utterly foreign in reference to the kingdom of God].

The kingdom is a monarchy; the church is a democracy under the headship of Jesus Christ and the rule of his Word.

There is a gospel of the kingdom (Matt. 9:35), but never a gospel of the church.

The kingdom is an indistinct, unobservable entity (Lk. 17:20–21);

the church is observable and quite distinct in all its characteristics (e.g., membership, leadership, ordinances, ministry, etc.).

The kingdom of God is the inclusive, comprehensive, sovereign and redemptive work of God in the world;

the church is an organism within this kingdom, proclaiming its message and furthering its advancement as it has been commissioned (Matt. 16:18–19; Acts 19:8; 20:24–25; 28:23, 31; Col. 4:11; 1 Thess. 2:12; 2 Thess. 1:4–5).

The kingdom of God will be progressively manifest until it is entirely comprehensive in its revealed or experimental scope, finding its ultimate conclusion in filling the world and in the “new heavens and earth” (Dan. 7:13–14; 1 Cor. 15:24–28; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 11:15; 19:6; 21:1).

The New Testament church as an institution will end with this economy, finding its fulfillment in the church glorious (Eph. 3:20– 21; Heb. 12:22–23).

Thus, the church is contained within the kingdom, but the kingdom is neither contained within the church nor equivalent to it. Such contrast manifestly distinguishes between the kingdom and the church, and affords no adequate foundation for a “universal, invisible church” theory.


It must be noted in church history that when the church and kingdom are considered synonymous, there are inevitable political, social and military implications. Both Romanism and Protestantism have historically resorted to political power and even to the sword to enforce their dictums and defend their causes (Cf. 2 Cor. 10:3–5).

 

[TCassidy]

Both Roman and Protestant theology confuse “the Church,” either visible or invisible, with the “kingdom of God” or the “kingdom of heaven” and “kingdom of Christ.”

I agree. When the reformers came out of the RCC they brought the corrupt ecclesiology of the RCC with them and mainline Protestantism has perpetuated that corrupt ecclesiology for 500 years largely via the slavish adherence to the Protestant confessions which also reflect the corrupt ecclesiology of Rome.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree. When the reformers came out of the RCC they brought the corrupt ecclesiology of the RCC with them and mainline Protestantism has perpetuated that corrupt ecclesiology for 500 years largely via the slavish adherence to the Protestant confessions which also reflect the corrupt ecclesiology of Rome.

YES....I am glad they did what they did in their time as we benefit from them. That being said....we are responsible to search the scriptures....
I subscribe to the 1689 , but on the 1644 they seem clearer on this issue.

I hold the strongest local church view that can be held...without crossing over into landmarkism. Because of dispensationalism I did not see this straight away. Because of my reliance on some of the Presbyterian teaching ...I ingested some of those ideas.
Studying particular redemption forced me to challenge some things I had a tenative hold on...The pastor who wrote this Catechism wrote a book on the nature of the church...which is very helpful.

I am still open to biblical input....

 

[Iconoclast]

The 1689;
Chapter 26: Of the Church
1._____ The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
( Hebrews 12:23; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:10, 22, 23; Ephesians 5:23, 27, 32 )

This will not be true until the last day when all will be visible....it will be an assembly.


2._____ All persons throughout the world, professing the faith of the gospel, and obedience unto God by Christ according unto it, not destroying their own profession by any errors everting the foundation, or unholiness of conversation, are and may be called visible saints; and of such ought all particular congregations to be constituted.
( 1 Corinthians 1:2; Acts 11:26; Romans 1:7; Ephesians 1:20-22 )

3._____ The purest churches under heaven are subject to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated as to become no churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan; nevertheless Christ always hath had, and ever shall have a kingdom in this world, to the end thereof, of such as believe in him, and make profession of his name.
( 1 Corinthians 5; Revelation 2; Revelation 3; Revelation 18:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12; Matthew 16:18; Psalms 72:17; Psalm 102:28; Revelation 12:17 )

In reality....their is no real mixture. There are tares among the wheat, but they are not part of the Church, but attach themselves to true churches like barnacles to a ship. The barnacle is not actually part of the ship.....they are like paracites infecting a healthy body.

 

[Reformed]

1._____ The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
( Hebrews 12:23; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:10, 22, 23; Ephesians 5:23, 27, 32 )

This will not be true until the last day when all will be visible....it will be an assembly.

This is true now. The universal church is termed invisible because the visible church is made up of believers and impostors (Jude 12). This is what the framers meant by "with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace". It is our Presbyterian brethren who include baptized infants as members of the visible church apart from saving faith.

The criticisms against confessional, covenantal Baptists are long-standing and expected. Sometimes there is a kernel of truth in even the most baseless accusations. Are we confessional because we are theologically lazy and are just looking for someone (or something) to tell us what to do; or are we confessional because, after careful searching of the scriptures (Acts 17:11), we determined the Confession was the most accurate statement of our faith? If it is the latter we should see attacks against confessionalism as a lack of understanding about what we believe. After all, confessional, covenantal Baptists are a distinct (albeit vocal) subset among Baptists. You have to develop a thick hide if you are going to persist in places where your views are not shared.

 

[Reformed]

While this thread is not about Confessionalism per se, the Confession does provide a measure of stability when it comes to topics like the one in the OP. The Confession provides structure and framework within to test our understanding of the scriptures. Spurgeon wrote:

"This ancient document is the most excellent epitome of the things most surely believed among us. It is not issued as an authoritative rule or code of faith, whereby you may be fettered, but as a means of edification in righteousness. It is an excellent, though not inspired, expression of the teaching of those Holy Scriptures by which all confessions are to be measured. We hold to the humbling truths of God's sovereign grace in the salvation of lost sinners. Salvation is through Christ alone and by faith alone."

I think Charles Spurgeon nailed it when he wrote, "It is not issued as an authoritative rule or code of faith, whereby you may be fettered". The Confession is not scripture and should not be treated as such. It is a commentary on what scripture teaches about the most important doctrines and practices of the Christian faith and the Church. As a commentary, it provides a framework to work with. In matters of controversy, it serves as a reliable check-point to see if our understanding of scripture is accurate. If a Christian elevates any confession beyond the commentary stage, they run the risk of becoming just like the Pharisees who elevated rabbinic tradition over the word of God.

 

[atpollard]

Just offering a data point from within living memory ...

2000 Baptist Faith and Message:

VI. The Church

A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.


The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Matthew 16:15-19; 18:15-20; Acts 2:41-42,47; 5:11-14; 6:3-6; 13:1-3; 14:23,27; 15:1-30; 16:5; 20:28; Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 3:16; 5:4-5; 7:17; 9:13-14; 12; Ephesians 1:22-23; 2:19-22; 3:8-11,21; 5:22-32; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:18; 1 Timothy 2:9-14; 3:1-15; 4:14; Hebrews 11:39-40; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Revelation 2-3; 21:2-3.

 

[Iconoclast]

Reformed,
The word used for church was used in the book of Acts for an unruly mob who had assembled. Now I know that the confession of faith when it includes imposters or unbelievers and says they are part of the visible Church I understand how they mean it and there's probably a sense of accuracy in this statement as they was even like a mixed multitude in the Old Testament like in numbers 11:4. However when I view the church that Christ died for that he shed his blood for I don't see imposters in that church so that's where I have a conflict with the actual definition of the church I don't believe in my mind and the charge that I view when I look at particular Redemption includes the imposters or the mixed multitude.
The confessional statement while accurate and overall I do support the confession except for this portion and the part about the pope being the Antichrist, is accurate towards the professed assembly but I sorta hold out the idea that it's inaccurate as far as the actual atonement

 

[Reformed]

Just offering a data point from within living memory ...

2000 Baptist Faith and Message:

VI. The Church

A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.


The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Matthew 16:15-19; 18:15-20; Acts 2:41-42,47; 5:11-14; 6:3-6; 13:1-3; 14:23,27; 15:1-30; 16:5; 20:28; Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 3:16; 5:4-5; 7:17; 9:13-14; 12; Ephesians 1:22-23; 2:19-22; 3:8-11,21; 5:22-32; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:18; 1 Timothy 2:9-14; 3:1-15; 4:14; Hebrews 11:39-40; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Revelation 2-3; 21:2-3.

From what I understand about the 2000 BF&M, it was written to be acceptable to the different theological positions within the SBC.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed,
The word used for church was used in the book of Acts for an unruly mob who had assembled. Now I know that the confession of faith when it includes imposters or unbelievers and says they are part of the visible Church I understand how they mean it and there's probably a sense of accuracy in this statement as they was even like a mixed multitude in the Old Testament like in numbers 11:4. However when I view the church that Christ died for that he shed his blood for I don't see imposters in that church so that's where I have a conflict with the actual definition of the church I don't believe in my mind and the charge that I view when I look at particular Redemption includes the imposters or the mixed multitude

But that is exactly what the framers of the 1689 LBC meant when they wrote that the church is invisible. They were not saying that the church actually includes saved and unsaved, they were saying that it is the Spirit that determines that fact. The work of the Spirit is not always known to us. In that sense it is invisible. I like what Sam Waldon wrote and what I quoted of him in post #17:

"In what sense, then, is the church 'invisible'? It is invisible because we cannot directly see the work of the Spirit which joins a person to Christ. It is invisible because we cannot perfectly judge the truth of another person's grace. It is invisible because the church as a whole is not yet a perfected, earthly reality. Visible churches are only imperfect and partial manifestations of it."

The true church only contains believers.

 

[HankD]

But that is exactly what the framers of the 1689 LBC meant when they wrote that the church is invisible. They were not saying that the church actually includes saved and unsaved, they were saying that it is the Spirit that determines that fact. The work of the Spirit is not always known to us. In that sense it is invisible. I like what Sam Waldon wrote and what I quoted of him in post #17:

"In what sense, then, is the church 'invisible'? It is invisible because we cannot directly see the work of the Spirit which joins a person to Christ. It is invisible because we cannot perfectly judge the truth of another person's grace. It is invisible because the church as a whole is not yet a perfected, earthly reality. Visible churches are only imperfect and partial manifestations of it."

The true church only contains believers.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

No mixed multitude.

 

[Iconoclast]

But that is exactly what the framers of the 1689 LBC meant when they wrote that the church is invisible. They were not saying that the church actually includes saved and unsaved, they were saying that it is the Spirit that determines that fact. The work of the Spirit is not always known to us. In that sense it is invisible. I like what Sam Waldon wrote and what I quoted of him in post #17:

"In what sense, then, is the church 'invisible'? It is invisible because we cannot directly see the work of the Spirit which joins a person to Christ. It is invisible because we cannot perfectly judge the truth of another person's grace. It is invisible because the church as a whole is not yet a perfected, earthly reality. Visible churches are only imperfect and partial manifestations of it."

The true church only contains believers.

Yes I believe you're giving an accurate rendering of what the framers of the confession wrote. I understand the wording and how they mean it. It's not that I'm a stubborn person or anything but I'm holding out 4 I guess what I would describe as a pure view of it in that the church as an assembled is visible so even though I can agree in part with what they're describing as the invisible Church another words those that have the Holy Spirit in-dwelling them it's only when the Believers assemble that they are a church. A disassembled assembly is not a church so I'm over here in Indiana right now but that doesn't mean hope Reformed Baptist Churches here. Hope Reformed Baptist Church is up on Long Island when it assembles with the elders and deacons and and the members

 

[TCassidy]

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

No mixed multitude.

Judas?

 

[HankD]

Judas?

No one in hell is part of the Church seen only by God.

 

[TCassidy]

No one in hell is part of the Church seen only by God.

You mean the unassembled assembly?

Where does that "church" meet (assemble)?

Where do I give my tithes and offerings to the unassembled assembly?

Who are the pastor and deacons of the unassembled assembly?

Where does the unassembled assembly bank my tithes and offerings?

 

[HankD]

You mean the unassembled assembly?

Where does that "church" meet (assemble)?

In heaven.

Hebrews 12:23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Where do I give my tithes and offerings to the unassembled assembly?

There is no need of wages in heaven as we will have rested from all our labors.

Who are the pastor and deacons of the unassembled assembly?

There is only one office of the assembly of the firstborn in heaven
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Where does the unassembled assembly bank my tithes and offerings?

We have sent it on ahead In heaven.
Matthew 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

 

[TCassidy]

In heaven.

So it does not exist yet?

There is no need of wages in heaven as we will have rested from all our labors.

So, until then, I can rob God?

 

[HankD]

So it does not exist yet?

Yes professor Tom, it's where you go when your spirit leaves your body.

So, until then, I can rob God?

if you choose.

 

[TCassidy]

Yes professor Tom, it's where you go when your spirit leaves your body.

Is sarcasm really necessary? If the "universal church" will only assemble in heaven, then for now it does not exist, does it? This is a genuine concern of mine regarding the whole "universal, invisible church" concept. When carefully considered it does not, as yet, exist as the whole (universal) church has not met. And will not meet until Hebrews 12:23 is fulfilled, in heaven, after the consummation of the age. But when I ask the question I usually get ridicule, sarcasm, or am called all sorts of names, but for whatever reason, I never get an honest answer.

if you choose.

If I choose to tithe to the "universal church" how do I do that?

I understand these questions are troubling in that they challenge sincerely held beliefs, but when these questions are addressed the answers will show that the concept is one of tradition rather than the result of bible exposition.

 

[HankD]

Is sarcasm really necessary? If the "universal church" will only assemble in heaven, then for now it does not exist, does it? This is a genuine concern of mine regarding the whole "universal, invisible church" concept. When carefully considered it does not, as yet, exist as the whole (universal) church has not met. And will not meet until Hebrews 12:23 is fulfilled, in heaven, after the consummation of the age. But when I ask the question I usually get ridicule, sarcasm, or am called all sorts of names, but for whatever reason, I never get an honest answer.

If I choose to tithe to the "universal church" how do I do that?

I understand these questions are troubling in that they challenge sincerely held beliefs, but when these questions are addressed the answers will show that the concept is one of tradition rather than the result of bible exposition.

I am sorry for the use of "sarcasm", i meant it as humor (smiley face).
I have given my answers to your questions with scripture.

True I don't like to challenge you but sometimes I do.

Hebrews 12:23 I disagree with your view that the church of the firstborn awaits the consummation of the age.

while i see the importance of the doctrine of the local church I am still convinced that the ekklesia exists simultaneously on earth as well as in heaven and consists of all NC born again believers including those who have gone on before us here on earth.

Tithe to the universal church? Personally I do not see "tithing" required of NC believers. however neither is it disallowed.
but when I do tithe I tithe to the local church as the church of the firstborn in heaven has no need of money.