Universal Church

[rsr]

I don't think they were omniscient; I know that all humans are fallible and their intellectual creations (such as confessions and systemic theologies) are fallible.

I believe they were making a good faith effort to be true to Scripture and threw out what they thought was unbiblical and altered dogmas in light of how they understood the Bible. What I reject is the notion that they just swallowed a doctrine without considering its implications or making their own modifications to align it with their view of Scripture. They may have been wrong in their conceptions of a universal church, but it was not because they were just going with the flow.

 

[TCassidy]

I believe they were making a good faith effort to be true to Scripture and threw out what they thought was unbiblical and altered dogmas in light of how they understood the Bible.

I concur.

What I reject is the notion that they just swallowed a doctrine without considering its implications or making their own modifications to align it with their view of Scripture.

I also reject that notion.

They may have been wrong in their conceptions of a universal church, but it was not because they were just going with the flow.

I agree. But there was such an emotional bond to what they already believed by virtue of having been taught, they were unable to overcome the two pronged argument from intellect and from emotion.

I understand how powerful such two pronged arguments can be. I was raised a Sacerdotal Sacramentarian. I believed I was born again in baptism, which was being sprinkled as an infant. I believed my salvation was maintained by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ via the eucharist. My entire religious education had centered on those teachings.

Add to that my family. My siblings. My parents. My grandparents. All believed the same thing, and to question those teachings was to question them and their veracity. It was not until I was 27 that I was able to see past the indoctrination of church leadership, and the emotional manipulation of my family, and recognize the Truth when I saw it.

It was then that God regenerated my sin sick soul, gave me faith to believe, the ability to repent and obey, and stand for that new found Truth in the face of all that opposition. But I discovered something on that long long journey. The words of men mean very little to me. My faith has found a resting place, not in device nor creed; I trust the Ever-living One, His wounds for me shall plead.

Why? My heart is leaning on the Word, The written Word of God, Salvation by my Savior’s name, Salvation through His blood.

It is the words of God that convinces and convicts my soul, not the words of men. Even those who stand, for the most part, in my heritage of faith. But when faced with a conflict between their words and God's words, I always choose God's words.

I see things differently than you. That is probably because we came at the subject from different directions. And, possibly, because I have made Christ and His church a primary focus of my study, for a long, long time. And possibly due to my age. You can cram a lot of study into 70+ years.

 

[Yeshua1]

The 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith describes the Church this way:

26.1 The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

English Particular Baptists, like their Presbyterian brethren, viewed the Church as the called-out people of God, with Christ as its head. They looked at verses like Ephesians 5:25-27 as describing the Church, not individual assemblies:

Ephesians 5:25-27 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

(All emphasis describe the church)

English Particular Baptists also recognized the Church as represented in individual assemblies which they termed particular societies, congregations, or churches:

26.2 All persons throughout the world, professing the faith of the gospel, and obedience unto God by Christ according unto it, not destroying their own profession by any errors everting the foundation, or unholiness of conversation, are and may be called visible saints; and of such ought all particular congregations to be constituted.

26.5 In the execution of this power wherewith he is so intrusted, the Lord Jesus calleth out of the world unto himself, through the ministry of his word, by his Spirit, those that are given unto him by his Father, that they may walk before him in all the ways of obedience, which he prescribeth to them in his word. Those thus called, he commandeth to walk together in particular societies, or churches, for their mutual edification, and the due performance of that public worship, which he requireth of them in the world.

Particular Baptists were in agreement with other Reformed denominations that worship and the ordinances (sacraments according to other Reformed denominations) could only be performed in local assemblies.

The Particular Baptist view of the Church is not held by all Baptists. In fact, the issue has been hotly contested and is one of the leading reasons why there have been many schisms and church splits over the past 300+ years.

When the scriptures describe the true Church of jesus, the One that he is head over, it is the Universal Body of all who have been saved, and they were also scattered into local church assemblies. When the Church gathers each Sunday to worship God and hear His word, its all of the redeemed who assembly together in all local groups that make up His Church!

 

[David Kent]

Why?

I don't know why. That is what they said.

 

[David Kent]

Because you were wrong. Christ is the baptizer.

• Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
• Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Chris

 

[TCassidy]

Yes, we have followed the Lord in believers baptism. What's your point?

 

[Yeshua1]

• Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
• Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Chris

The Holy Spirit Himself places us into the Body of Christ, the moment we believe into Jesus and are thus saved, as He comes to baptize us into Christ and His body, seals, and indwells us now!

 

[TCassidy]

He comes to baptize us into Christ and His body, seals, and indwells us now!

Never, never, never, anywhere in the New Testament is the Holy Spirit the active voice baptizer. Never.

 

[JonShaff]

Never, never, never, anywhere in the New Testament is the Holy Spirit the active voice baptizer. Never.

So what does it mean when Christ said He will Baptize us with the Holy Ghost? (i'm not fully addressing your statement, i know)

Maybe i missed it some where in this thread?

 

[TCassidy]

So what does it mean when Christ said He will Baptize us with the Holy Ghost? (i'm not fully addressing your statement, i know)

Christ is the active voice baptizer and the Holy Spirit is the medium into which we are immersed.

Christ baptized us in the Holy Spirit, not the other way around.

 

[JonShaff]

Christ is the active voice baptizer and the Holy Spirit is the medium into which we are immersed.

Christ baptized us in the Holy Spirit, not the other way around.

Ok, but what does that entail?

 

[TCassidy]

Ok, but what does that entail?

I am just saying that Yeshua1 is dead wrong when he says "He (The Holy Spirit) comes to baptize us into Christ."

 

[JonShaff]

I am just saying that Yeshua1 is dead wrong when he says "He (The Holy Spirit) comes to baptize us into Christ."

I understand...i was just wanting to get your thoughts on What it means that Christ Baptized us with the Holy Spirit.

 

[atpollard]

I am just saying that Yeshua1 is dead wrong when he says "He (The Holy Spirit) comes to baptize us into Christ."

Perhaps, but Paul says SOMEBODY baptized us into Christ:

[Romans 6:3 NASB] 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
[Galatians 3:27 NASB] 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am just saying that Yeshua1 is dead wrong when he says "He (The Holy Spirit) comes to baptize us into Christ."

The Holy Spirit baptizes us at conversion into the Body of Christ, His true Church.

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps, but Paul says SOMEBODY baptized us into Christ:

[Romans 6:3 NASB] 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
[Galatians 3:27 NASB] 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Only God can do that, ie, the Holy Spirit!

 

[HankD]

Perhaps, but Paul says SOMEBODY baptized us into Christ:

[Romans 6:3 NASB] 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
[Galatians 3:27 NASB] 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

But are these passages speaking of water baptism?

 

[TCassidy]

The Holy Spirit baptizes us at conversion into the Body of Christ, His true Church.

Wrong again. No scripture to support that charismatic myth.

 

[TCassidy]

Only God can do that, ie, the Holy Spirit!

Actually churches all over the world baptize people every day.

 

[TCassidy]

Perhaps, but Paul says SOMEBODY baptized us into Christ:

[Romans 6:3 NASB] 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
[Galatians 3:27 NASB] 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

That's water baptism done by a local church.