Vaccine mandates on public gatherings.

[JonC]

*On a side note:
If asked, I would stop short of characterizing Pfizer's, Moderna's and Johnson and Johnson's products as "vaccines", but rather what I believe that they are...
"genetic manipulation" based on biotechnology that has, until recently, not even been used to make any widely-available medicines of any type, that I know of.
The tangled history of mRNA vaccines

In addition and as far as I am aware, up until this past year ( 2020 ), these mRNA and DNA technologies hadn't even been widely tested on human beings,
and to me they still exist as experimental "vaccines" in which the general public, all over the world, was made an unwitting accomplice in their development and distribution.

All credible science (and decades of mRNA studies) say otherwise.

 

[JonC]

To continue my above:

What were regarded by Americans as a set of unwritten ( and written ) rules regarding the protection of personal freedoms, is vanishing rapidly in favor of edging towards a form of totalitarianism because of...

Fear.

Fear of dying from a virus that has, historically, resisted being controlled for over 18 months now,
and in all probability will continue to defy science... as well as ruin economies if governments keep up their "containment" policies.

Liberty, the American way, is dying, whether or not anyone wants to admit it.
If Americans want it what way, then it's up to them to amend their own Constitution that gives the federal government its power on behalf of the states,
or to sit back and watch it be taken from them by people who don't care if it's taken away.

Myself, I'm an observer caught in the middle who happens to like my personal freedoms in this life.
If they disappear, then I'll have to get used to a new set of rules for the remainder of it.


Either way,
Would someone please let me know when an agreement is made?

I go back to America and the principles upon which we were founded. A people have no right to another person's property. Men are free within the constraints of the law to regulate their own affairs, including their businesses.

A minority of unvaccinated people do not have the right to deprive men of this liberty.

 

[Dave G]

All credible science (and decades of mRNA studies) say otherwise.

Frankly, i don't put much credit towards man's science.

I'm a man of faith, my friend, and science ( I've been a scientist all my life, observing God's creation and marvelling at what makes it all "tick" in its every detail ) is something that I find is best defined by this one statement:

"Knowledge puffeth up".

Give sinful men something to take credit for, and we will invariably start to think that we're invincible.
Take away our respect for God's power, and all we have respect for is our own "sufficiency".

 

[Dave G]

A minority of unvaccinated people do not have the right to deprive men of this liberty.

Neither do a majority of vaccinated people have the right to do the opposite.

But,
Since when, as Christians, are we so concerned with protecting what is, ultimately, fleeting...
Our lives in this world, Jon?

Kinda makes the argument moot, doesn't it?

 

[JonC]

Frankly, i don't put much credit on man's science.

I'm a man of faith, my friend, and science ( I've been a scientist all my life, observing God's creation and marvelling at what makes it all "tick" in its every detail ) is something that I find is best defined by this one statement:

"Knowledge puffeth up".

Give sinful men something to take credit for, and we will invariably start to think we're invincible.

The thing is the things you deny are known. You can say "knowledge puffers up" but that is taking Scripture out of context. This would put you in the group of those insisting the earth is flat because it has 4 corners, rejecting the idea of open heart surgery, or medical treatments that have saved thousands of babies that would otherwise have died.

What you are missing is the fact that God works through people, God gives man abilities, surgeons the skill to save lives, and scientists the skill yo develop vaccines effective against covid.

It is not faith in man's science but faith in God.

 

[JonC]

Neither do a majority of vaccinated people have the right to do the opposite.

But,
Since when, as Christians, are we so concerned with protecting what is, ultimately, fleeting...
Our lives in this world, Jon?

Kinda makes the argument moot, doesn't it?

This is not true. Vacvinated people are not depriving liberty. It is the reverse.

People are not being forced to take a vaccine but unvaccinated people are talking about depriving men of rights over their own property.

Granted, socialism is not necessarily against Scripture. But why rush there headlong?


To answer your question about being concerned about the lives of people living temporarily in this world - because what you do to the least of these you do to Christ.

This is why I reject forcing vaccines, but I also reject stealing from men.

 

[Dave G]

The thing is the things you deny are known. You can say "knowledge puffers up" but that is taking Scrioture out of context. This would put you in the group of those insisting the earth is flat because it has 4 corners, rejecting the idea of open heart surgery, or medical treatments that have saved thousands of babies that would otherwise have died.

What you are missing is the fact that God works through people, God gives man abilities, surgeons the skill to save lives, and scientists the skill yo develop vaccines effective against covid.

It is not faith in man's science but faith in God.

Without wanting to offend you personally, Jon, it seems to me that you're placing more faith in science, than in God, my friend.

Where is the line between "self-sufficiency" and faith in these threads being drawn, when all is said and done?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but to me, it seems that you're placing your faith, trust and security in this life in vaccines... and ones that aren't even stopping people from getting sick anymore.

Myself, I'm still trusting the Lord and hoping that I won't have to put something in my body that has been proven to cause heart inflammation, in some cases.

 

[Dave G]

This is not true. Vacvinated people are not depriving liberty. It is the reverse.

People are not being forced to take a vaccine but unvaccinated people are talking about depriving men of rights over their own property.

Granted, socialism is not necessarily against Scripture. But why rush there headlong?


To answer your question about being concerned about the lives of people living temporarily in this world - because what you do to the least of these you do to Christ.

This is why I reject forcing vaccines, but I also reject stealing from men.

Jon, I've no wish to argue with you on this.

It seems that you're convinced of one way, and I'm convinced of another...while remaining as neutral as I'm able to.
When it comes to injustice and oppression, I see things that I didn't think that I'd see in my lifetime, happening right before my eyes... and it didn't start with the outbreak of SARS-COV2.

I'm also beginning to wonder just how far people will go to ensure their own personal safety.

 

[Revmitchell]

The thing is the things you deny are known. You can say "knowledge puffers up" but that is taking Scripture out of context. This would put you in the group of those insisting the earth is flat because it has 4 corners, rejecting the idea of open heart surgery, or medical treatments that have saved thousands of babies that would otherwise have died.

What you are missing is the fact that God works through people, God gives man abilities, surgeons the skill to save lives, and scientists the skill yo develop vaccines effective against covid.

It is not faith in man's science but faith in God.

actually it puts you in the group. You are the one who holds to the religion of a false science that rejects questions and opposition for political purposes. You are the one doing that.

 

[JonC]

Without wanting to offend you personally, Jon, it seems to me that you're placing more faith in science, than in God, my friend.

Where is the line between "self-sufficiency" and faith in these threads being drawn, when all is said and done?
To me, it seems you're placing your security in this life in vaccines...
and ones that aren't even stopping people from getting sick anymore.

Myself, I'm still trusting the Lord and hoping I wion't have to put something in my body that has been proven to cause heart inflammation, in some cases.

No offense, brother. I understand that is what you think.

There have been medical advancements like the vaccines, medical technologies that have saved hundreds of thousands premature babies that would have otherwise died, heart surgeries impossible decades ago, breast cancer detection and treatment that have saved the lives of thousands of women, in vivo surgeries that has saved thousands of children....).

You contribute all of these saved lives to science and men while I attribute these to God.

Make no mistake, we do disagree but it is not me having faith in science and man. It is that I discern the hand of God using men to save millions upon millions of lives while you elevate this to human skill.

 

[JonC]

I'm also beginning to wonder just how far people will go to ensure their own personal safety.

I am wondering the sane. Nobody is forcing vaccines on people BUT a minority of unvaccinate people are talking about installing a socialistic takeover of private businesses. And this out of selfishness.

 

[JonC]

@Dave G ,

I asked this of another member and I think it only right I ask it of you.

Again, I understand your distrust of science.

But have you considered the hundreds of thousands men and women who would be dead today had they taken your advice? Have you considered the premature babies that are alive now but would be dead if their parents followed your guidance? What about the thousands of children that are at this moment with loving parents, but would be dead if your ideas were followed?

Is aborting a child any worse than denying life saving medical care to an infant because one does not trust the experts?

What if a woman reads your post and is persuaded to your view about medical science, only to have her child die a preventable death? Would you share in the guilt? Would you care?

Words are powerful, more than I think you may realize. We will be held accountable for the words we speak. Perhaps people should be a little more careful. We never know who may stumble upon...or on...our words.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is a crisis if the unvaccinated ate able to dictate to businesses how to protect their business.

We live in a free society. Bit more and more our freedoms are being eroded.

Now we see this with the anti-covid-vaccine movement.

They want to choose for themselves whether to be vaccinated. I agree they should.

But the they want to choose for business owners how they can protect their income, their employees and their customers!

What gives these vaccine rejections the right to decide how a private company does business?

They pretend to be about liberty but just beneath the facade they are stripping freedoms from our nation.

Let capitalism work! Stop trying to dictate everybody bow to your desires. If a venue requires vaccines and it us the wrong decision then capitalism will quickly fix it.

Minority rule is not the solution. Socialism is not the solution. Allow men to be free. Stop trying to strip others of liberty. You have yours - decide whether to get vaccinated. But leave us to live our lives and run our businesses as we see fit.

There is a hospital in my area that is about to collapse because of vaccine mandates… ie staff is resigning in droves. This is the end result. So now, my wife who is a cancer patient cannot get her medical tests done. Thanks Joe Biden.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Because that is not what is happening. The govt is letting the business decide if they require vaxes. They get to decide if they want full capacity vaxed or quarter capacity unvaxed. That's not a free choice, it's strong arm thuggery.

It is!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Businesses are owned. The owners of businesses should be able to decide how they run their businesses. If they require masks, vaccinations, no masks....that is their right.

Strong armed thuggery is the anti-vovid-vaxers trying to strip freedoms away from businesses. That is wrong.

We are a capitalistic nation. Don't trash liberty for minority rule.

So if you are a hospital administration hell bent on your entire staff being vaccinated, shouldn’t you also insist that your patients/ clientele be vaccinated?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am wondering the sane. Nobody is forcing vaccines on people BUT a minority of unvaccinate people are talking about installing a socialistic takeover of private businesses. And this out of selfishness.

That’s utter nonsense and you know it. The only socialism is the government mandates stripping individual rights to choose to be vaccinated or not.

 

[JonC]

That’s utter nonsense and you know it. The only socialism is the government mandates stripping individual rights to choose to be vaccinated or not.

No. If the government was forcing vaccinations that would be wrong, but not socialism.

Demanding the people determin how a privately own business is run is approaching socialism.

 

[JonC]

So if you are a hospital administration hell bent on your entire staff being vaccinated, shouldn’t you also insist that your patients/ clientele be vaccinated?

No. Hospitals are responsible for the safety of employees and patients, but employers set employment requirements for their employees. Hospitals often dedicate time and resources to treat people who are there for foolish decisions.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No. Hospitals are responsible for the safety of employees and patients, but employers set employment requirements for their employees. Hospitals often dedicate time and resources to treat people who are there for foolish decisions.

And that’s revenue for them. Have you read about the new Merck covid medications

 

[JonC]

actually it puts you in the group. You are the one who holds to the religion of a false science that rejects questions and opposition for political purposes. You are the one doing that.

No. The thing is we differ on beliefs.

I praise God for giving men the skills, for working through them, to save lives rather than glorifying men for those millions saved.

It is like abortion issues. You and I are both opposed to abortion - but you less so. We both believe abortion is murder, but I also believe denying medical treatment to save an unborn child equates to abortion. You, on the other hand, seem to indicate such treatments should be avoided because they are products of man.

Have you considered that if women followed your advice about these trusting medical researchers, these scientists, these medical organizations then you would have been responsible for the death of more babies than any single abortionist?