Vague Translations, Poor Translations and Mistranslations

[Van]

Would you prefer having English readers thinking the wrong antecedent for a pronoun because it is so far away from its antecedent? Is it not a danger or hazard leading to possible misunderstanding if the English pronoun is too far away from its antecedent?

Greek scholars would likely suggest that the correct antecedent can be more soundly determined from the Greek than from English since Greek is an inflected language.

William Mounce maintained that “because Greek is an inflected language, Greek writers are comfortable separating pronouns from their antecedents by quite some distance” while “English requires pronouns to be much closer to their antecedent” (Greek for the Rest of Us, pp. 103-104).

No, of course not. I like the practice, because it allows information in the Greek to be brought into the English to eliminate ambiguity. My caution is simply that sometimes an interpretation, such as mine, can miss the mark.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

My caution is simply that sometimes an interpretation, such as mine, can miss the mark.

Indubitably.

 

[Van]

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters: did God not choose the poor [fn]of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
footnote: Lit "to the"
Note in post 111 the italics have been deleted from the NASB20 rendering. "To be" is in italics to show it was added and not part of the actual text. So God chose those who were poor according to the world's standards, yet rich in faith. Thus the non-ambiguous version eliminates the corruption of the text upon which Calvinism's false doctrines are supported. If God chooses individuals who are rich in faith, then their election is based in part on their individual characteristic, a conditional election. So of course, the Calvinist choir sings endless verses of their old standard, "Taint so."

 

[Van]

Has God has determined from eternity to save a definite number of mankind, i.e. foreseen individuals? This bogus assertion assumes Ephesians 1:4, where God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, refers to individuals. But this verse refers to "us" as being chosen as the target group, those to be redeemed, not individually but corporately.

The reason this has to be a corporate election, rather than a definite number of foreseen individuals, is that God chooses individuals during our lifetime. James 2:5 says God chooses the poor in the eyes of the world, those rich in faith, those who are heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him. All three of these conditions occur during our lifetime, we accept Christ and toss out the treasures of this world, we put our faith in the surpassing glories of heaven, thus rich in faith, and we devote ourselves to Christ, loving Christ with all our heart, mind and soul.

Next we pile on 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says we are chosen through faith in the truth. Faith comes from hearing. So we must be alive, living somewhere to hear and put our trust in Christ in order to be chosen through faith in the truth.

Next we pile on 1 Corinthians 1:26-30. God puts us in Christ, it is His doing, we do not do it. But He puts us in Christ during our lifetime, choosing those that disregard the world's value system for God's value system, opposing the proud but giving grace to the humble.

Next, we have 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says we are chosen, i.e. receive mercy, after we have lived without mercy. Once we were not a people, but now we are a people. Again this puts our individual election during our lifetime after we have lived without mercy.

Next, we are by nature, children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3. But no charge (the cause of wrath) can be brought against the elect, Romans 8:33. So again, we are chosen, elected after we have lived without mercy as a child of wrath.

Ephesians 1:4, "just as God chose those of us now located in Him corporately before the foundation of the world, as the target group of His Redemption plan, that we would be holy and blameless when subsequently placed in Him.

 

[agedman]

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters: did God not choose the poor [fn]of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
footnote: Lit "to the"
Note in post 111 the italics have been deleted from the NASB20 rendering. "To be" is in italics to show it was added and not part of the actual text. So God chose those who were poor according to the world's standards, yet rich in faith. Thus the non-ambiguous version eliminates the corruption of the text upon which Calvinism's false doctrines are supported. If God chooses individuals who are rich in faith, then their election is based in part on their individual characteristic, a conditional election. So of course, the Calvinist choir sings endless verses of their old standard, "Taint so."

This is why I reject the NASB ‘20. They attempt to place gender neutral renderings where the original is specific in gender.
AdelphOS is specific brothers
AdelpE is specific sisters

to add sisters where the originals do not is totally misleading by the translators


Again, those who are currently skilled in the use and tools of language have my permission to gently correct any error that I may make.

 

[Van]

This is why I reject the NASB ‘20. They attempt to place gender neutral renderings where the original is specific in gender.
AdelphOS is specific brothers
AdelpE is specific sisters

to add sisters where the originals do not is totally misleading by the translators

Again, those who are currently skilled in the use and tools of language have my permission to gently correct any error that I may make.

Ever notice how Calvinists change the subject? The issue was whether "chosen the poor "to the" world" was biblical, and I supported that it is based on a NASB20 footnote. So now that issue is ignored and they are off on another tangent... Go figure

 

[agedman]

Ever notice how Calvinists change the subject? The issue was whether "chosen the poor "to the" world" was biblical, and I supported that it is based on a NASB20 footnote. So now that issue is ignored and they are off on another tangent... Go figure

I took issue with the fictionalization of the reference by the NASB ‘20, and use use the same version to attempt to build a foundation on a “footnote?”


Really, a footnote has become Scripture?

That the post relies on a footnote as proof?

Go figure!

 

[agedman]

Has God has determined from eternity to save a definite number of mankind, i.e. foreseen individuals? This bogus assertion assumes Ephesians 1:4, where God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, refers to individuals. But this verse refers to "us" as being chosen as the target group, those to be redeemed, not individually but corporately.

The reason this has to be a corporate election, rather than a definite number of foreseen individuals, is that God chooses individuals during our lifetime. James 2:5 says God chooses the poor in the eyes of the world, those rich in faith, those who are heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him. All three of these conditions occur during our lifetime, we accept Christ and toss out the treasures of this world, we put our faith in the surpassing glories of heaven, thus rich in faith, and we devote ourselves to Christ, loving Christ with all our heart, mind and soul.

Next we pile on 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says we are chosen through faith in the truth. Faith comes from hearing. So we must be alive, living somewhere to hear and put our trust in Christ in order to be chosen through faith in the truth.

Next we pile on 1 Corinthians 1:26-30. God puts us in Christ, it is His doing, we do not do it. But He puts us in Christ during our lifetime, choosing those that disregard the world's value system for God's value system, opposing the proud but giving grace to the humble.

Next, we have 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says we are chosen, i.e. receive mercy, after we have lived without mercy. Once we were not a people, but now we are a people. Again this puts our individual election during our lifetime after we have lived without mercy.

Next, we are by nature, children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3. But no charge (the cause of wrath) can be brought against the elect, Romans 8:33. So again, we are chosen, elected after we have lived without mercy as a child of wrath.

Ephesians 1:4, "just as God chose those of us now located in Him corporately before the foundation of the world, as the target group of His Redemption plan, that we would be holy and blameless when subsequently placed in Him.

So you recognize a God who is less than knowledgeable, and has to wait upon human time, chance of birth, chance of survival, chance of wondering into a place to hear, chance of becoming aware, chance… , chance…., chance…!


Nope, my God is all knowing, not concerned with human time, but manipulates time and events to His will, and has no diminished divine attributes in which you must forfeit in some corporate election scheme.

Each of those verses you cited can be taken as individuals elected prior to the creation.

Not a single verse states anyone was elected corporately, HOWEVER, the Scriptures state that we are chosen according to His plan and will.

9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him,10regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11In Him we also have obtained aninheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14who is a firstinstallment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

According to the personal pronouns, the WE, US, YOU, are all indicators of specific selection of specific people. Subset of the whole group called humans. God does not wait on human time. He settled the matter prior to the creation.

WHEN did this choosing take place of these individuals?

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:​

Believers were not “corporately” elected, but individuals chosen to be the specifically placed in the sub set of the whole. Therefore, the “we, us, you” is used rather than those who wondered in and joined up.

God knew exactly who and when the believer would be born and “in the fullness of time,” and “according to His will,” “according to His purpose” and “according to His good pleasure” performed that which the individual was predestined/chosen.

Corporate election presents a diminished God of lesser divine character.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Ephesians 1:4, "just as God chose those of us now located in Him corporately before the foundation of the world, as the target group of His Redemption plan, that we would be holy and blameless when subsequently placed in Him.

My caution is that an interpretation such as yours certainly misses the mark by miles.

 

[agedman]

My caution is that an interpretation such as yours certainly misses the mark by miles.

I agree.

When @Van presents the opinion as fact, and then has to present a false rendering of Scripture of Ephesians 1:4 by stating (“just as God chose those of us now located in Him corporately before the foundation of the world, as the target group of His Redemption plan, that we would be holy and blameless when subsequently placed in Him. ”) the end result is completely bogus (using a term he enjoys).

The writers of Scripture do not have that verse even close to how @Van presents.

Here is how the major authorities translated that verse (taken from Bible Hub):

New International Version
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

New Living Translation
Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.

English Standard Version
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

King James Bible
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

New King James Version
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

New American Standard Bible
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

NASB 1995
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

NASB 1977
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love​

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 130 am EDT (Sat) / 1030 pm (Fri)

 

[Van]

SNIP
Go figure!

James 2:5, God chose those who were poor to the world, or were poor in the judgment of the world.
Discernment...

 

[Van]

So you recognize a God who is less than knowledgeable,
SNIP
Corporate election presents a diminished God of lesser divine character.

Yet another false charge, as God's description from scripture is all knowing...
Corporate election of group with a common characteristic, such as the descendants of Abraham, is found through-out scripture. Denial of this obvious fact reflects use of a disingenuous argument. God is not diminished, His sovereignty is expanded to reflect His word.

 

[Van]

I agree.

When @Van presents the opinion as fact,
SNIP

New International Version
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
Here "before the creation of the world" is an opinion, not fact.
New Living Translation
Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
Here "before he made the world" is an opinion, not fact.
English Standard Version
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Ambiguous as to whether God chose us corporately or individually. Thus the cause of false doctrine.
King James Bible
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ambiguous as to whether God chose us corporately or individually. Thus the cause of false doctrine.
New King James Version
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ambiguous as to whether God chose us corporately or individually. Thus the cause of false doctrine.
New American Standard Bible
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Ambiguous as to whether God chose us corporately or individually. Thus the cause of false doctrine.
NASB 1995
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Ambiguous as to whether God chose us corporately or individually. Thus the cause of false doctrine.
NASB 1977
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Ambiguous as to whether God chose us corporately or individually. Thus the cause of false doctrine.​

 

[Salty]

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