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Vague Translations, Poor Translations and Mistranslations
- Thread starter Van
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RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
Van, you have addressed none of the above. To do so would be an admission of guilt on your part.
Returning to topic:
Vague translation choices, or poor translation choices and mistranslation can be used to pour mistaken or false doctrine into the text. Sometimes the NET translation chooses to translate a pronoun with its antecedent. The hazard of course is if the wrong antecedent is chosen, the inspired text is corrupted.
An "antecedent" of a pronoun is the specific person, place, thing or idea to which the pronoun refers. For example,
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [fn]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
In the above verse two pronouns (that and it) refer to a vague antecedent. The footnote in the NASB identifies that the antecedent is "salvation" but plenty of Calvinist writers claim the antecedent includes faith as a gift. (The other pronoun "it" has been added, thus in italics, to smooth out the sentence.)
Here I think the translators missed a bet, as instead of adding another vague pronoun (it) they could have added in italics "salvation." Thus the verse might be translated as "For by grace you have been saved by means of faith; and that not of yourselves, salvation is the gift of God. An even better translation choice would be to find the actual antecedent of "that" with is "gift." Thus the verse, properly translated might read, "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."
Contextually the more specific translation fits:
so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God; therefore salvation is not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Vague translation choices, or poor translation choices and mistranslation can be used to pour mistaken or false doctrine into the text. Sometimes the NET translation chooses to translate a pronoun with its antecedent. The hazard of course is if the wrong antecedent is chosen, the inspired text is corrupted.
An "antecedent" of a pronoun is the specific person, place, thing or idea to which the pronoun refers. For example,
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [fn]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
In the above verse two pronouns (that and it) refer to a vague antecedent. The footnote in the NASB identifies that the antecedent is "salvation" but plenty of Calvinist writers claim the antecedent includes faith as a gift. (The other pronoun "it" has been added, thus in italics, to smooth out the sentence.)
Here I think the translators missed a bet, as instead of adding another vague pronoun (it) they could have added in italics "salvation." Thus the verse might be translated as "For by grace you have been saved by means of faith; and that not of yourselves, salvation is the gift of God. An even better translation choice would be to find the actual antecedent of "that" with is "gift." Thus the verse, properly translated might read, "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."
Contextually the more specific translation fits:
so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God; therefore salvation is not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Improved and clarified translations:
1) Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."
2) 1Corinthians 2:14: "But an unspiritual person does not accept the solid foods of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him or her; and he or she cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
3) Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD when sinning:
4) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had accepted direction to eternal life believed.
5) James 2:5: Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6) John 6:37: "Everyone the Father gives will arrive within Me, and the one transferred to Me, I will never cast out.
1) Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."
2) 1Corinthians 2:14: "But an unspiritual person does not accept the solid foods of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him or her; and he or she cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
3) Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD when sinning:
4) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had accepted direction to eternal life believed.
5) James 2:5: Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6) John 6:37: "Everyone the Father gives will arrive within Me, and the one transferred to Me, I will never cast out.
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
You have to improve your grammar Van. It is not "the poor to the world." One option would be "the poor of the world." Or, you could say "the poor in the world." Learn to use proper prepositions.
And, as I keep reminding you, there is no adversative in the verse. There is no legitimate reason to insert yet in this verse. It is your novel invention. No other Bible translation has it.
Whatever happened to your once-favored word --siblings? You used to maintain that brothers and brethren should give way to "siblings." I was never a fan of that ugly word, but it appears that you have backed away from it.
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
What follows are biblically sound, clear, orthodox and historically accepted fundamental truths from God's Word rendered by the CSB.
Ephesians 2:8
For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the person without the Spirit does not receive what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.
Romans 3:11
There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and honored the word of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.
James 2:5
Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Didn't God choose the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to them that love him?
John 6:37
Everyone the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never cast out.
Ephesians 2:8
For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the person without the Spirit does not receive what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.
Romans 3:11
There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and honored the word of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.
James 2:5
Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Didn't God choose the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to them that love him?
John 6:37
Everyone the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never cast out.
Listen to the Calvinist who does not seem to know how to do word studies now cannot grasp "poor to the world."
How about poor in the eyes of the world? Or poor as to this world? Poor by worldly standards?
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are simply copy and post poor, vague and errant translations. More twaddle piled up to derail yet another thread
Returning to topic once again:I
Improved and clarified translations which eliminate the ambiguity upon which Calvinism is based.
1) Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."
2) 1Corinthians 2:14: "But an unspiritual person does not accept the solid foods of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him or her; and he or she cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
3) Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD when sinning:
4) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had accepted direction to eternal life believed.
5) James 2:5: Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6) John 6:37: "Everyone the Father gives will arrive within Me, and the one transferred to Me, I will never cast out.
Improved and clarified translations which eliminate the ambiguity upon which Calvinism is based.
1) Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."
2) 1Corinthians 2:14: "But an unspiritual person does not accept the solid foods of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him or her; and he or she cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
3) Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD when sinning:
4) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had accepted direction to eternal life believed.
5) James 2:5: Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6) John 6:37: "Everyone the Father gives will arrive within Me, and the one transferred to Me, I will never cast out.
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
The following verses demonstrate, in clear language, the fundamental truths of the historic Christian Church. This Bible translation is from the NASB 2020.
1) Ephesians 2:8:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
2) 1Corinthians 2:14:
But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned,
3) Romans 3:11
There is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks out God.
4) Acts 13:48:
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.
5) James 2:5:
Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters: did God not choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he promised to those who love him.
6) John 6:37:
Everything that the Father givs Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out.
1) Ephesians 2:8:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
2) 1Corinthians 2:14:
But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned,
3) Romans 3:11
There is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks out God.
4) Acts 13:48:
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.
5) James 2:5:
Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters: did God not choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he promised to those who love him.
6) John 6:37:
Everything that the Father givs Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out.
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
And your 'translations' are super nifty? Your efforts have nothing in common with trusted Bible translations. I'll give you one thing. Your 'translations' are not vague. They put your agenda on the front page --loud and clear.
And how, pray tell, does the listing of those six passages by me, of legitimate translations, derail this thread? I am right on target. How can you twist that?
Now the poster declares published translations are ok. But will not accept others as if he was judge. And remember, this "Judge" does not even do word studies...
Taint so posts offering no insight on the basis of the ambiguity simply lengthen the thread...
Returning to topic once again:I
Improved and clarified translations which eliminate the ambiguity upon which Calvinism is based.
1) Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."
2) 1Corinthians 2:14: "But an unspiritual person does not accept the solid foods of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him or her; and he or she cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
3) Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD when sinning:
4) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had accepted direction to eternal life believed.
5) James 2:5: Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6) John 6:37: "Everyone the Father gives will arrive within Me, and the one transferred to Me, I will never cast out.
Improved and clarified translations which eliminate the ambiguity upon which Calvinism is based.
1) Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."
2) 1Corinthians 2:14: "But an unspiritual person does not accept the solid foods of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him or her; and he or she cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
3) Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD when sinning:
4) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had accepted direction to eternal life believed.
5) James 2:5: Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6) John 6:37: "Everyone the Father gives will arrive within Me, and the one transferred to Me, I will never cast out.
James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters: did God not choose the poor [fn]of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
footnote: Lit "to the"
Note in post 111 the italics have been deleted from the NASB20 rendering. "To be" is in italics to show it was added and not part of the actual text. So God chose those who were poor according to the world's standards, yet rich in faith. Thus the non-ambiguous version eliminates the corruption of the text upon which Calvinism's false doctrines are supported. If God chooses individuals who are rich in faith, then their election is based in part on their individual characteristic, a conditional election. So of course, the Calvinist choir sings endless verses of their old standard, "Taint so."
Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters: did God not choose the poor [fn]of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
footnote: Lit "to the"
Note in post 111 the italics have been deleted from the NASB20 rendering. "To be" is in italics to show it was added and not part of the actual text. So God chose those who were poor according to the world's standards, yet rich in faith. Thus the non-ambiguous version eliminates the corruption of the text upon which Calvinism's false doctrines are supported. If God chooses individuals who are rich in faith, then their election is based in part on their individual characteristic, a conditional election. So of course, the Calvinist choir sings endless verses of their old standard, "Taint so."
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RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
For the benefit of readers who appreciate legitimate translations of the word of God and not agenda-fueled ones that lead others astray, I offer the NET of these key passages.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 3:11
there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and praise the word of the Lord, and all who had been appointed for eternal life believed.
James 2:5
Listen, my dear brothers and sisters! Did not God choose the poor in the world to be rich in the faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
John 6:37
Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 3:11
there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and praise the word of the Lord, and all who had been appointed for eternal life believed.
James 2:5
Listen, my dear brothers and sisters! Did not God choose the poor in the world to be rich in the faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
John 6:37
Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away.
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
Would you prefer having English readers thinking the wrong antecedent for a pronoun because it is so far away from its antecedent? Is it not a danger or hazard leading to possible misunderstanding if the English pronoun is too far away from its antecedent?
Greek scholars would likely suggest that the correct antecedent can be more soundly determined from the Greek than from English since Greek is an inflected language.
William Mounce maintained that “because Greek is an inflected language, Greek writers are comfortable separating pronouns from their antecedents by quite some distance” while “English requires pronouns to be much closer to their antecedent” (Greek for the Rest of Us, pp. 103-104).
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