"valid" versions

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Double post. Sorry.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

deleted post by HP

 

[annsni]

Is this the way the moderators of the list are going to handle direct personal attacks by coddled members of this board, by deleting the post of the individual that draws it to their attention? What a sham!

This is what Ann stated, and that without apology. Ann speaking directy to HP: "You call God a liar."

I am here to apologize for this. I meant to put in a question mark but I must have put a period instead. I was posting just when I heard a scream from the bathroom from my 5 year old (not a "I'm dying" scream but a scream none-the-less) and I just hit the last keystroke, posted and ran. I did not mean to accuse but to ask a question. Again, I apologize for making it seem like I was attacking.

Oh - and it was soap in the eyes that caused the scream. Whew!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: I did not mean to accuse but to ask a question. Again, I apologize for making it seem like I was attacking.

Oh - and it was soap in the eyes that caused the scream. Whew!

HP: Apology accepted. It happens to the best of us.:thumbs:

I wonder how many other personal attacks were simply the results of a missed question mark or the such like due to unusual circumstances such as ‘soap in the eyes?’ Makes one wonder.

 

[annsni]

HP: Apology accepted. It happens to the best of us.:thumbs:

I wonder how many other personal attacks were simply the results of a missed question mark or the such like due to unusual circumstances such as ‘soap in the eyes?’ Makes one wonder.

I don't know but such is the life in a house with 4 kids. :BangHead:

 

[Ed Edwards]

// HP: I for one have a hard time believing that the NKJV is not 'in some ways' a new translation. I can remember when it first came out a ‘very’ well known fundamentalist Baptist preacher and college founder I believe, stated on the radio promoting it, that it was “pre-millenial.” That gave me a clue, right or wrong, that something had been altered in order to better line up with the ‘pre-millennial view point. I never took the time to search it verse by verse to find out what he was talking about, I simply believed him that it was a doctored attempt to tinker, yet once again, with the Word of God. //

Amen, Brother Heavenly Pilgrim - you are right that the nKJV is 'in some ways' a new translation. For my pre-tribulation I prefer the 'falling away' in the KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which relates to the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church of the Living God (also known as 'the gathering' in 2 Thess 2:1). The nKJV also has 'falling away' in the nKJV 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Contrast this with the post-Trib-only 'apostasy' that is in many MVs (Modern Versions).

In any case, I doubt if 'a doctored attempt to tinker' is a good reason for the nKJV going along with the KJV at this place

I tell you what, it will be a lot easier for the people left behind to 'measure' the pre-tribulation rapture will or has happened than 'an apostasy' will or has happened.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: For my pre-tribulation I prefer the 'falling away' in the KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which relates to the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church of the Living God (also known as 'the gathering' in 2 Thess 2:1).

HP: Are you absolutely certain it relates? What do you base your conclusion on; absolute knowledge, faith, or simply conjecture?

 

[Ed Edwards]

// HP: Would Almighty God give unto man His words in a package that has a ‘copy write’ agreement attached to it? I personally do not believe that He would. //

Again, you condemn an 'updated' KJV because it does what the KJV did. Surely everybody knows by now that the KJV copies sold in the British Empire have a copyright. That copyright belongs to the Crown of England. The USofA broke with the UK in 1776 so doesn't care about those copyrights. Unfortunately, that means that there are many variant spellings, punctuation, and formatting for the KJVs

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: Are you absolutely certain it relates? What do you base your conclusion on; absolute knowledge, faith, or simply conjecture?

I'm sure it relates. About 5,000 of my 14,000+ posts concern Eschatology. I'm certain it relates. The pre-KJV English Bibles all use a form of 'departure' in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed: USofA broke with the UK in 1776 so doesn't care about those copyrights.

HP: Now in that I definitely do see the hand of God in the preservation of His Word for the common man. Yet another reason to proclaim, God bless America!

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: //I believe the KJV beats all other versions hands down is the scholarship of those compiled to complete the KJV. I personally believe it would be all but impossible if not impossible to assemble such a group of men with like qualifications today or at any time during the time duration the modern translations have been written. . //

I believe a couple of the KJV Translators were Baptist Killers. All of the KJV Translators were baby baptizers. That spiritually disqualifies all of them, in my books.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed: I'm sure it relates. About 5,000 of my 14,000+ posts concern Eschatology. I'm certain it relates. The pre-KJV English Bibles all use a form of 'departure' in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

HP: I would simply state, that in about 5000 of your 14000+ posts you have been assuming a correlation between a departing and a pre-tribulational rapture, which is simply not supported directly by the Word of God. To assume, as you obviously are, that the departing is not a departing from the faith but rather into glory, is at direct antipodes with God’s Word……………….unless one assumes that we go by way of falling. That would appear to me to be going in the wrong direction.

If Ed is right about the 'departing,' could one that is said to have 'departed' from the Living God just been raptured early?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: I believe a couple of the KJV Translators were Baptist Killers. All of the KJV Translators were baby baptizers. That spiritually disqualifies all of them, in my books.

HP: That is quite an accusation Ed, the killing part that is. Can you substantiate your accusations with facts?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed: All of the KJV Translators were baby baptizers.

HP: I can not see for a minute why this should disqualify anyone. If I believed the dogma of original sin I would be all for baptizing infants as well. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: My NIV, ESV, NASB all have the same doctrines as my KJV.

HP: It would be beginning to appear upon the outer edges of my cranial matter that there just might be a difference of opinion in the house. :wavey:

It would be nice though to see things in the same manner as you obviously do. It would sort of ‘un-complicate’ this matter of differing Words of God and the clear distinctions so many draw from the translations as it involves the formulation of theological perspectives and doctrines......... but, my mind and spirit will not allow me to see it as you obviously do.

These differences should make for some interesting and lasting debate.

 

[Ed Edwards]

// HP: I would simply state, that in about 5000 of your 14000+ posts you have been assuming a correlation between a departing and a pre-tribulational rapture, which is simply not supported directly by the Word of God. To assume, as you obviously are, that the departing is not a departing from the faith but rather into glory, is at direct antipodes with God’s Word……………….unless one assumes that we go by way of falling. That would appear to me to be going in the wrong direction. //

lost = Spiritual disorientation (how can I get saved?)
lost = temporal disorientation (what time is it?)
lost = spacial disorientation (where am I?)

Dear Brother HP: you appear to be suffering from spacial disorientation. the difference between falling away from the earth and rising up from the earth is THE ORIENTATION OF THE CAMERA.

Someday at the end of the Church Age, at the pre-tribulation rapture, I will fall away from this old world right into the arms of Jesus. If I die before the pre-tribulation rapture I'll be resurrected - I'll fall out of my grave and right into the arms of Jesus, when I depart this world.

I understand that Jesus might fly in feet toward the earth to come and whip up on the Antichrist's peeps. But I don't think anybody can PROVE if Jesus comes at the pre-tribulation rapute with his face toward the ground or away from the ground. Again, the orientation of the camera.

BTW, those with good spacial orientation know that when I get raptured at the pre-tribulation rapture in the USofA, the saint in Australia will be going in a totally different direction from me. (just for good sport we might be both rising or falling - the Bible really doesn't say).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dear Brother HP: you appear to be suffering from spacial disorientation. the difference between falling away from the earth and rising up from the earth is THE ORIENTATION OF THE CAMERA.

HP: Now that is a novel perspective. :thumbs: So if I am standing on my head, and I see a rock traveling from my feet upwards, it must in fact be rising and not falling. Interesting thought Ed. See the things that one learns if patience is observed in our discussions?

You know, I just thought of something. If a verse does not line up with your favorite presupposition, try reading it upside down or standing on your head…. or better yet for preservation of the desired truth, take a picture of it upside down. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Why don’t we all try a little object lesson in Biblical translation? Let’s assume that we have nine pieces of differing manuscripts that have the following written for the same portion of the text in a particular verse. The read the following: “falling away,” “great rebellion against the Lord,” “the final rebellion,” “the rebellion occurs,” “a definite rejection of Christ,” “the Great Revolt,” “ the rebellion,” “the final rebellion against God,”……… and then Ed’s obvious favorite which says, simply “a departing” to which Brother Ed finds useful to relate it to the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church he believes it must in fact speak of.

Your job is to translate this verse for the modern reader by using these differing connatations. What words would you choose to depict the true meaning of the Holy Spirit for the reader, in keeping with that which we know is the very Words of God? What might be your reasoning in the choosing the words you employ?

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: Now that is a novel perspective. :thumbs: ...

'Novel perspective' is not that the way you look at a work of fiction?:saint:

Here, I'll help you be silly:

Rom 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:

Rom 10:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saued.

As can be seen, the KJV is WEAK on the direction. The Geneva clearly says Jesus was raised UP from the dead. The KJV allows for Jesus to have been raised sideways (like to the door of the tomb) from the dead.

Another weakness of the KJV?

 

[Rippon]

If I believed the dogma of original sin I would be all for baptizing infants as well. :thumbs:

Many who hold to original sin do not hold to infant sprinkling.The Calvinistic Baptists on this board certainly do not believe in the practice of infant sprinkling.It is not baptism.