"valid" versions

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rippon: Many who hold to original sin do not hold to infant sprinkling.The Calvinistic Baptists on this board certainly do not believe in the practice of infant sprinkling.It is not baptism.

HP: If you read my post I was referring to how “I” would believe, NOT pointing to any beliefs or practices of others.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: As can be seen, the KJV is WEAK on the direction. The Geneva clearly says Jesus was raised UP from the dead. The KJV allows for Jesus to have been raised sideways (like to the door of the tomb) from the dead.

Another weakness of the KJV?

HP: Let’s see how others might respond.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed, you have got me thinking. I have been having some trouble (or so Steaver and friends believe) over the word eternal. Seeing how you so effectively handle the words ‘falling away’ to support your held convictions, I was wondering if I could hire you to do some consulting for me if in fact I decide to reply to Steaver? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Unitarianism and Liberal Christianity love the modern versions. So what is the point? Any version can be twisted by those who are determined to do so.

Amen, Brother AntennaFarmer -- Preach it!

Note that the KJV is part of 'any version'.
All the great schisms of the 19th Century (1801-1900), however, came from reading the KJVs

Adventist
Christian Science
Latter Day Saints (LDS), including Mormons
Jehovah's Witness

(some of these have replaced the KJV with their own version)

The KJV has had more twists than all MVs combined.
The KJV has more twists than Chubby Checker!

 

[antiaging]

I find your type pitiful--akin to the pharisees.

"You aren't healed because you didn't have enough faith."

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. Judgemental, unbiblical, theologically uninformed, and absolutely mean.

Not to mention...I think you're lying. I simply don't believe you did half the junk you claimed.

You have absolutely no concept of faith, and the god you serve is little more than a personal Santa Claus.

You should be ashamed posting this garbage on a Christian board.

Furthermore: The girl I described earlier prayed as Jesus did--"your will be done." Thank God she had real faith, instead of the pseudo-faith, I'm-gonna-boss-God-around, "I know what's best" filth you are describing.

You believe exactly what you want to believe, OK.

I believe the KJV bible and what Jesus said about the use of faith, and I experimented with it. --and got results.

I was a street preacher for years. I was witnessing to this guy about Jesus one day and he could not even consider what I was saying. He stared at the ground and in all seriousness said, "I am Venus the god of Love". I kept on trying to talk to him about Jesus and he did not respond, just said, " I am venus the god of love". He was talking like he was crazy. I said, "in the name of Jesus Christ, come out of him". In about 10 seconds he started talking like he was normal and responding to what I said about Jesus, and we talked about it.
Something like that happened more than once. That I believe, was casting out a devil.
Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Every teaching he gave the apostles is for all Christians.
If you don't have faith enough to excercise the powers of healing and miracles that is available to all Christians, then that is your fault.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Antiaging:
"If you don't have faith enough to excercise the powers of healing and miracles that is available to all Christians, then that is your fault."

GE:
What you say here, belies everything and every word of what you have said up to it.
I bet I'm not the only one who could perceive it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:
"All the great schisms of the 19th Century (1801-1900), however, came from reading the KJVs"

GE:
What greater nonsense - no, what greater rubbish could you have written?

 

[rbell]

If you don't have faith enough to excercise the powers of healing and miracles that is available to all Christians, then that is your fault.

Sorry dude, you're full of it.

Matthew 7:21--


21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Does God do miracles? Yes. Does He work them through people? Yes.

Does God heal everyone? No. When God chooses not to heal, is it always because of a lack of faith? No.


Anyone who teaches otherwise flirts with heresy, because they make God subject to the commands of man. Not to mention, they aren't too observant, because people with more faith than you, antiaging, die all the time.

I'll believe what I want, all right. I believe you are incredibly erroneous in your beliefs. And I still think you're making junk up.

 

[annsni]

You believe exactly what you want to believe, OK.

I believe the KJV bible and what Jesus said about the use of faith, and I experimented with it. --and got results.

I was a street preacher for years. I was witnessing to this guy about Jesus one day and he could not even consider what I was saying. He stared at the ground and in all seriousness said, "I am Venus the god of Love". I kept on trying to talk to him about Jesus and he did not respond, just said, " I am venus the god of love". He was talking like he was crazy. I said, "in the name of Jesus Christ, come out of him". In about 10 seconds he started talking like he was normal and responding to what I said about Jesus, and we talked about it.
Something like that happened more than once. That I believe, was casting out a devil.
Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Every teaching he gave the apostles is for all Christians.
If you don't have faith enough to excercise the powers of healing and miracles that is available to all Christians, then that is your fault.

Umm, I've been a part of casting out demons - without using the KJV. What does the KJV have to do with casting out demons? Any believer has the power to do that.

Healing? That's up to God. We can pray with faith, but there are some sicknesses that are unto death and that's God's purpose. It is appointed once for ALL men that we should die. It will happen at some point and no amount of faith will stop that. If it's so, then David, Abraham and Paul would still be alive.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed Edwards:
"All the great schisms of the 19th Century (1801-1900), however, came from reading the KJVs"

GE:
What greater nonsense - no, what greater rubbish could you have written?

Tee Hee, be careful what you call THE TRUTH. It can reach up and bite you.

Thus says the Lord in His Written Word of God, the Holy Bible:

Isaiah 5:20 (NIV = New International Version):
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.






[/FONT]

 

[annsni]

Ed Edwards:
"All the great schisms of the 19th Century (1801-1900), however, came from reading the KJVs"

GE:
What greater nonsense - no, what greater rubbish could you have written?

Well, I think we can safely say that they weren't with the NIV....

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed, you have got me thinking. I have been having some trouble (or so Steaver and friends believe) over the word eternal. Seeing how you so effectively handle the words ‘falling away’ to support your held convictions, I was wondering if I could hire you to do some consulting for me if in fact I decide to reply to Steaver? :smilewinkgrin:

O.K.

Here is a good place to start:
What do you think 'eternal' mean?
Ed's definition hint: look it up in a concordance (e-sword.com is the one I use) - frequently the Bible defines terms, especially important terms like 'forever' and 'eternal'.

 

[antiaging]

Sorry dude, you're full of it.

Matthew 7:21--


21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Does God do miracles? Yes. Does He work them through people? Yes.

Does God heal everyone? No. When God chooses not to heal, is it always because of a lack of faith? No.


Anyone who teaches otherwise flirts with heresy, because they make God subject to the commands of man. Not to mention, they aren't too observant, because people with more faith than you, antiaging, die all the time.

I'll believe what I want, all right. I believe you are incredibly erroneous in your beliefs. And I still think you're making junk up.

1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

You see in verse 12:31, where it says "covet earnestly the best gifts".
You are instructed to use faith to develope these gifts in your work for the Lord.
Instructed to at least try for it.

Jesus said this, at the end of a parable, which directly followed a teaching about using faith to do the miraculous:
Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

How does one covet the best gifts, when he attends a church that does not practice them and sometimes will even say they were for another time?.

My background is Assemblies of God; full gospel. They teach the whole New Testament. They don't leave out part of it through unbelief like some churches.
My beliefs are KJV bible. I will surely use faith as instructed by the Lord.


Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Someone like me that listened to the KJV bible on tape, over and over again, since about 1979 should certainly have faith, if that scripture above is true.

I have covered the old testament well over 100 times and the new testament around 600 times (estimates). I listen to the bible like others listen to the radio.
If you're wondering why I should have such faith, and you don't, maybe that is the reason.

 

[antiaging]

The Waldensians originated in the 12th century.

http://www.1john57.com/
337 changes/deletions in the modern versions

Scroll down the list to 1John 5:7; it reads

New Testament Greek manuscripts have this verse quoted as early as 150 AD.
See their link.

http://watch.pair.com/another.html
See this link for why the modern versions are corrupted; the history of it.

 

[Darron Steele]

http://www.1john57.com/
337 changes/deletions in the modern versions

Scroll down the list to 1John 5:7; it reads

New Testament Greek manuscripts have this verse quoted as early as 150 AD.
See their link.

Or, perhaps with respect to the ancient texts, the KJV has hundreds of changes/additions. The KJV translated numerous texts that are now known to be additions because of discovered ancient manuscripts.

It is the obligation of any modern translation that seeks to be accurate to correct any mistranslations or additions in the KJV.

As for your link, P45 does NOT have Acts 8:37; I checked in a printed transcription of its Greek text. Further, the "Complutensian Polyglott edition" is not a manuscript, but a printed Greek text of the early 1500's. I suspect the author needs to do research a bit more carefully.

Further, there is no surviving manuscript from around the year 150 which has any portion of 1 John 5.

 

[antiaging]

Or, perhaps with respect to the ancient texts, the KJV has hundreds of changes/additions. The KJV translated numerous texts that are now known to be additions because of discovered ancient manuscripts.

It is the obligation of any modern translation that seeks to be accurate to correct any mistranslations or additions in the KJV.

As for your link, P45 does NOT have Acts 8:37; I checked in a printed transcription of its Greek text. Further, the "Complutensian Polyglott edition" is not a manuscript, but a printed Greek text of the early 1500's. I suspect the author needs to do research a bit more carefully.

Further, there is no surviving manuscript from around the year 150 which has any portion of 1 John 5.

Modern means further removed from the past and how it really was in the past. The more modern you get, the further away from the original scriptures you are. Modern versions stray from the original text, they don't get closer to it.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


http://www.1john57.com/1john57.htm
See note 2:
14 out of 20 manuscripts that contain acts 8:37 also contain 1John 5:7.

Scroll down to the list in blue. References to what it says in 1John 5:7 as early as 215 AD. Word trinity used in 168 AD.
There are references to it that date back that far.
380 AD is a direct reference to 1John5:7,and 8. --see the list. And it says the apostle John wrote it.

 

[Darron Steele]

Modern means further removed from the past and how it really was in the past. The more modern you get, the further away from the original scriptures you are. Modern versions stray from the original text, they don't get closer to it....

I am not sure I buy this.

The King James Version translated 1500's and 1600's Greek texts based on perhaps a few dozen medieval manuscripts.

Most modern translations translate Greek texts made from dozens of ancient manuscripts.

Your underlying premise is correct: the closer to the original in time, the more likely to be similar to the original.

Most modern translations translate texts of ancient manuscripts. This is the biggest point of superiority of most modern translations over the KJV.

 

[Ed Edwards]

// How does one covet the best gifts, when he attends a church that does not practice them and sometimes will even say they were for another time?. //

By the Bible:
1 Co 14:1 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Followe after loue, and couet spirituall giftes, and rather that ye may prophecie.

I have both the gift of speaking to God in unknown tongues and the gift of prophecy. I exercise ONLY the Gift of Prophecy here on this board. I am the bouncer at by Church. If anybody speaks in an unknown tongue in my church I will escort (or remove with violence) them out. Seems that God has NOT chosen the local church I go to for the expression of the Spiritual Gift of speaking to God in unknown tongues OR the inerpertation of such toungus. God has blessed my church with the Spiritual Gift of love & charity. (God has also gifted my church with two each over 300 pound persons for serious bouncing tasks )

There is a couple of perfectly good carismatic Baptist (AKA: Assembly of God) Churches within ten minutes of my church. I even know about 10% of the congegration of one of them. Two fellow deacons at my church attend one of the AoGs. BTW, when I take an on-line "which denomination should you belong to?" quiz, I always come out Conservative Baptist first & AoG second. I think the Spiritual gift of musical worship leading is to be exercised in the Church together to Worship God, but I do NOT think we aught to teach music leading from the pulpit. So I'm not real sure that a person's prayer language should be taught from the pulpit - evangelistic sermons should be preached to the lost among us; exhortation should be taught from the pulpit to the church members. If we need to teach someone how to pray in tongues (a very private thing, by the way) do it in private.

Not that my signature block is ON TOPIC: All VALID versions are the inerrant Word of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darron Steele: Or, perhaps with respect to the ancient texts, the KJV has hundreds of changes/additions. The KJV translated numerous texts that are now known to be additions because of discovered ancient manuscripts.

HP: I believe that is patently false. In order to believe that, one has to first accept the man made ‘theories’ of modern criticism as truth, which are simply not supported by any relevant facts.

Prove to the list that any of the recent discoveries plucked from the trash can of a convent have disproved in any way that the KJV is based on faulty manuscripts and or texts.

 

[EdSutton]

1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

You see in verse 12:31, where it says "covet earnestly the best gifts".
You are instructed to use faith to develope these gifts in your work for the Lord.
Instructed to at least try for it.

Jesus said this, at the end of a parable, which directly followed a teaching about using faith to do the miraculous:
Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

How does one covet the best gifts, when he attends a church that does not practice them and sometimes will even say they were for another time?.

My background is Assemblies of God; full gospel. They teach the whole New Testament. They don't leave out part of it through unbelief like some churches.
My beliefs are KJV bible. I will surely use faith as instructed by the Lord.


Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Someone like me that listened to the KJV bible on tape, over and over again, since about 1979 should certainly have faith, if that scripture above is true.

I have covered the old testament well over 100 times and the new testament around 600 times (estimates). I listen to the bible like others listen to the radio.
If you're wondering why I should have such faith, and you don't, maybe that is the reason.

There is a difference between (1.) "faith" as used here in Rom. 10:17 and Ephesians 2:8-9 e.g., where this is referring to faith in the Lord and is the basis for salvation, (2.) the 'spiritual gift of faith as found in I Cor. 12:9, (3.) faith as in "measure of faith", a description of a spiritual gift (Rom 12:3,7), "faith" as in "the faith" - a definition of Christian truth (Jude 3), and faith as one abiding virtue, along with hope and love, as in I Cor. 13, for five quick examples, of differing uses.

And not everyone has faith, (II Thess. 3:2) which happens to be another use of the term, although this use is somewhat akin to use #1, above.

Let's not overly 'condense' what is being said, here, in these various uses, of one English word, representing one Greek word.

And I also suggest that even hearing a verse 600 times does not guarantee correct exegesis of that verse, necessarily, and I believe you happen to be incorrectly exegeting Rom. 10:17, as well as some other uses of 'faith' in this post, here, for one example.

Apollos was undoubtedly a very learned individual, was said to be "an eloquent man, and mighty in the Scriptures" and "had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord," but "he knew only the baptism of John". (Big "but", here!) So two lay people - Aquila and Priscilla - "took him aside and explained to him (G)the way of God more accurately."

Bible Gateway has 21 English versions of the Bible available on-line. The words "using faith", which is what you say you are doing, never occur in any of them, and the only instance of the words "use faith" is one version which says "The Law does not 'use faith'." in Gal. 3:12 in the NLV. We are never told to "use faith" anywhere in Scripture, although we are told to "have faith", be "holding faith', and to have "kept the faith" among other things. "Our faith" (Lk. 17:5; Heb. 10:23; 12:2), and the "faith in/of God/Christ" (Rom. 3:3; Phl'p. 3:9; Col. 1:4; Jas. 2:1) is not a toy.

Ed