Variations of Calvinism - Which Are You -- If Any

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I knew you and others would say that. It is the stock answer.

I know as much as it's possible to know that both these people were truly saved. There is absolutely no question in my mind about it.

There is no way in the world that anyone can say with certainty that people like these were never really saved. I, knowing them personally, can say far more certainly that they were indeed saved.

Dont get defensive, I'm not fighting you..... its just my opinion & you know what thats like, right! :laugh:

 

[steaver]

Steaver, I decided to respond to this to let you know that for most of my life I did in fact believe in OSAS. I was taught that doctrine as a Southern Baptist, and I went to great lengths to defend it, and to make sure I could get the Scriptures to agree with it. .

My journey is a bit different. I was never taught OSAS. Once I heard about the controversy between believers I studied it out with much prayer and comentaries considering both pros and cons on the doctrine. I never went to any lengths to make the scriptures agree with it. I probably spent about two years on it before deciding OSAS was sound doctrine.

I realized that the believers' security was conditioned on him continuing to, well, be a BELIEVER. And according to Scriptures saving faith is not something that exists only in the intellectual realm, but is that which works through love. That's the only faith that avails for anyting in Christ Jesus (GAL 5:6) and that's the kind of faith that a Believer must continue to have in order to continue to abide in Christ.

And I would totally agree with all of this, but this is not the issue, the issue is whether one can stop believing in that which one has a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth. Born of God is a new creation, two become one, the old man is passed, a new man is created by God and for God, eternal life is created in that man. That alone, Eternal Life, is of GREAT importance in this discussion. If one has it, the term alone does not allow for it to ever cease to exist.

We shouldn't let our presuppositions about what we think can or must be possible regarding 'born of God Christians' overrule what Scriptures actually teaches is possible.

Agreed!

However, as I pointed out above, one can choose to submit to God's correction and continue in the faith, or one can persistently DESPISE His correction and so harden himself to the point where he no longer has a lively fruit producing faith in Christ.

I just don't see that taught in the scriptures. Here you have fruit producing faith. That is incorrect, it is faith which produces the fruit, not the other way around.

I too believe that it is by grace through faith that I am saved. However, God keeps us by His power THROUGH faith, and if our faith ever becomes shipwreck or fruitless and thus DEAD, then we are no longer being saved by grace through faith, as a DEAD or shipwrecked faith doesn't save.

The scripture concerning a "shipwrecked faith" is not clear if this is a true believer who has gone astray doctrinally, or if it is a false convert who's faith was merely intellectual. This particular scripture does not give enough information to make an honest judgment against OSAS.

Now a DEAD faith is addressed in the book of James and he makes it clear that these persons are professors only (if a man say he hath faith) of faith in Christ and by their fruits prove that they have not entered into a relationship with the Living God.

I am not depending on my natural ability to abstain from sin. I am relying on God's grace in CHRIST through the HOLY SPIRIT. I acknowledge that I still struggle with sin, and will continue to do as long as I have this fleshly body. Yet, I am grateful that when I do sin I have an Advocate with the Father, and if I confess my sin He is faithful to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. I am grateful that I have the Spirit interceding for my weakness with groanings which cannot be uttered, and I am grateful that by the Spirit I can mortify the deeds of the flesh, as I do so, I am progressively being sanctified.

Amen! Without Christ in you, you could not stay saved.

I am secure a long as I continue to abide in the Vine, and God has given me (and continues to give me) the grace to do so.

Now here you bring bearing fruit into this issue. abiding in the Vine is not about keeping oneself saved, but rather it is about bearing fruit, without staying in step with the Master one cannot bear good fruit.

However, one who persistently and unrepentantly disobeys God's commands is by definition not abiding in Christ, as the Apostle John stated: "Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him" (1 John 3:24).

The scriptures declare that one who persistently and unrepentantly disobeys God's commandments is by definition unregenerated.

Neither I nor anyone else keep his commandments perfectly, but it is the presence and ministry of the Holy Spirit that assists in our weaknessess (Romans 8:26) and convicts us when we do sin so we can confess and repent and thus continue on the path of sanctification (if we submit to Him and not continue to, and finally, resist Him, grieve Him or quench Him ).

Agreed. But again, the issue is whether or not one can lose their salvation by grieving the Holy Spirit. I don't see it in scripture.

I can make my calling and election sure (2 Peter1:10) as I diligently add to my faith, virtue, knowlege, self-control, patience, godliness, kindness, and love (2 Peter 1:5-8) because He has already given me all things that pertain to life and godliness in my knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 1:3).

I can work out my salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who works in me both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Amen!

So, no, I do NOT believe that person needs to be sinless to be saved or stay saved, or that one loses his salvation every single time he sins.

Well, I came to that conclusion bc you posted a scripture which states that the soul that sins against God will be blotted out of the book of life as an example of losing salvation. Well, as you said, we all sin, so it wouldn't be good for any of us apart from Jesus Christ and His Work on the cross. I have my confidence in Him alone to bring me to final sanctification.

OTOH, and at the same time, I also do NOT believe that a Christian is permanantly and irrevocably saved regardless however he chooses to live his life after coming to Christ. Both ideas are unbiblical extremes and are thus in error.

Here in lies the real issue I think. We get frustrated how people who calls themselves Christian live. Well, we just have to let God make that final judgment as to whether he ever knew them or not. I will keep preaching to those who profess Jesus but don't seem to care about His commandments at all. I will consider such one's as never having been born again and will continue to tell them about Jesus. One plants, another waters, and God gives the increase.

In this Christian walk, we need to maintain the balance by embracing both His promises and His warnings

And I will end with a hearty AMEN brother! Amen.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Dont get defensive, I'm not fighting you..... its just my opinion & you know what thats like, right! :laugh:

Oh, I wasn't all that defensive.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

My journey is a bit different. I was never taught OSAS. Once I heard about the controversy between believers I studied it out with much prayer and comentaries considering both pros and cons on the doctrine. I never went to any lengths to make the scriptures agree with it. I probably spent about two years on it before deciding OSAS was sound doctrine.



And I would totally agree with all of this, but this is not the issue, the issue is whether one can stop believing in that which one has a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth. Born of God is a new creation, two become one, the old man is passed, a new man is created by God and for God, eternal life is created in that man. That alone, Eternal Life, is of GREAT importance in this discussion. If one has it, the term alone does not allow for it to ever cease to exist.



Agreed!



I just don't see that taught in the scriptures. Here you have fruit producing faith. That is incorrect, it is faith which produces the fruit, not the other way around.



The scripture concerning a "shipwrecked faith" is not clear if this is a true believer who has gone astray doctrinally, or if it is a false convert who's faith was merely intellectual. This particular scripture does not give enough information to make an honest judgment against OSAS.

Now a DEAD faith is addressed in the book of James and he makes it clear that these persons are professors only (if a man say he hath faith) of faith in Christ and by their fruits prove that they have not entered into a relationship with the Living God.



Amen! Without Christ in you, you could not stay saved.



Now here you bring bearing fruit into this issue. abiding in the Vine is not about keeping oneself saved, but rather it is about bearing fruit, without staying in step with the Master one cannot bear good fruit.



The scriptures declare that one who persistently and unrepentantly disobeys God's commandments is by definition unregenerated.



Agreed. But again, the issue is whether or not one can lose their salvation by grieving the Holy Spirit. I don't see it in scripture.



Amen!



Well, I came to that conclusion bc you posted a scripture which states that the soul that sins against God will be blotted out of the book of life as an example of losing salvation. Well, as you said, we all sin, so it wouldn't be good for any of us apart from Jesus Christ and His Work on the cross. I have my confidence in Him alone to bring me to final sanctification.



Here in lies the real issue I think. We get frustrated how people who calls themselves Christian live. Well, we just have to let God make that final judgment as to whether he ever knew them or not. I will keep preaching to those who profess Jesus but don't seem to care about His commandments at all. I will consider such one's as never having been born again and will continue to tell them about Jesus. One plants, another waters, and God gives the increase.



And I will end with a hearty AMEN brother! Amen.

I really enjoyed this exchange between you and DT. Now this is what I call fruitful debate. I like it!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Steaver, first let me say that I appreciate the irenic tone of your post. It seems we do agree on several things, so I'll limit this reply mostly to what we still disagree on....

I had said:

Quote:
I realized that the believers' security was conditioned on him continuing to, well, be a BELIEVER. And according to Scriptures saving faith is not something that exists only in the intellectual realm, but is that which works through love. That's the only faith that avails for anyting in Christ Jesus (GAL 5:6) and that's the kind of faith that a Believer must continue to have in order to continue to abide in Christ.


To which you replied:

And I would totally agree with all of this, but this is not the issue, the issue is whether one can stop believing in that which one has a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth.

Well, it is indeed the issue. I think if it is possible for angels that were created holy, and were in the very presence of the Almighty, to rebel, then it is certainly possible for humans, who have come to a knowledge of the truth through Christ and who have in fact previously escaped the pollutions of the world, to do the same (see 2 Peter 2).

Born of God is a new creation, two become one, the old man is passed, a new man is created by God and for God, eternal life is created in that man. That alone, Eternal Life, is of GREAT importance in this discussion. If one has it, the term alone does not allow for it to ever cease to exist.

I think here is where a good part of the misconception lies. The Apostle John wrote this:
"11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12)

Notice that eternal life is IN CHRIST--it's not located in us independent of our connection to Christ. This is further supported earlier in the epistle when John wrote:
" 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- " (1 John1:2)
So, again, we see that ETERNAL Life is located in the PERSON of Christ. He is ETERNAL--with no beginning or end. We only POSSESS this life in time when we embrace Christ. In otherwords, our possesion of eternal life is not eternal as it had a beginning point in time. And if we are ever severed from Christ through unbelief, then that possession of eternal life will also have an ending in time as well.

"12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life".

I had said:

Quote:
However, as I pointed out above, one can choose to submit to God's correction and continue in the faith, or one can persistently DESPISE His correction and so harden himself to the point where he no longer has a lively fruit producing faith in Christ.


To which you replied:

I just don't see that taught in the scriptures. Here you have fruit producing faith. That is incorrect, it is faith which produces the fruit, not the other way around.

Actually, you misunderstand me, which is probably my fault as I unfortunately omitted some punctuation marks. Here's what I meant to say:
"he no longer has a lively, fruit-producing faith in Christ." (notice the addition of the comma and hyphen, which shows that 'lively' and 'fruit-producing" are adjectives which modifies faith). I certainly did not intend to give the impression that fruit produces faith. :laugh:

The scripture concerning a "shipwrecked faith" is not clear if this is a true believer who has gone astray doctrinally, or if it is a false convert who's faith was merely intellectual. This particular scripture does not give enough information to make an honest judgment against OSAS.

I'll concede your point here that the precise meaning of this particular passage is somewhat uncertain as the wording seems to be somewhat ambiguous, so I won't belabor the point here. However, there are other Pauline passages that speak of the importance of continuing in the faith (lest one is cut off--Romans 11:20-22) and continuing to believe (in the gospel in which they stand) unless they have ultimately believed in vain (1 Cor 15:1-2), and warning believers about receiving the grace of God in vain (2 Cor 6:1). The Apostle Paul also warned that one could fall from grace, and logically one cannot fall from a place he was never in (Gal )

Now a DEAD faith is addressed in the book of James and he makes it clear that these persons are professors only (if a man say he hath faith) of faith in Christ and by their fruits prove that they have not entered into a relationship with the Living God.

Or it could demonstrate that a person NO LONGER has a relationship with the Living God. James doesn't specifically state that a person with a dead faith NEVER had a live faith at some point--just that the one who HAS no works to complete his faith does not have a lively faith. Therefore this may refer to those who have ALWAYS been false professors (ie NEVER saved), or those who are presently false professors (who aren't currently producing any fruit)

Agreed. But again, the issue is whether or not one can lose their salvation by grieving the Holy Spirit. I don't see it in scripture.

Couldn't one say that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the ultimate grieving/quenching/insulting of the Holy Spirit? We know the believers are warned not to grieve, quench or insult the Holy Spirit, so this implies that such things are possible for the believer to do. There is therefore no logical reason to exclude the possibility that a believer could likewise blaspheme against the Spirit if he persistently resists and repeatedly refuses to respond to His convicting call to repent.

Believers (brethren) are instructed to live to the Spirit, and by the Spirit to mortify the deeds of the flesh so they may LIVE (Romans 8:12-13); and likewise they (the same people) are warned not to live according to the flesh or they will DIE. [*NB: it's probably important to point out here that FALSE believers can't make this choice since they don't have the indwelling Spirit by Whom they can mortify the deeds of the flesh]. Similarly, believers are enjoined to sow to the Spirit rather than to the flesh so that they will reap everlasting life rather than corruption if they don't lose hope (Gal 6:7-9). [*NB: and again, only true believers have the Spirit to whom they can sow; False believers can't do this, and they certainly don't have any actual "hope" which they can lose]

Those who do NOT sow to the Spirit (and who do NOT mortify the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit) cannot expect to bear the FRUIT of the Spirit. And we know that fruitless branches are those that are not continuing to abide in the Vine, and thus they will be cut off if they remain fruitless.

I had said:
Quote:
OTOH, and at the same time, I also do NOT believe that a Christian is permanantly and irrevocably saved regardless however he chooses to live his life after coming to Christ. Both ideas are unbiblical extremes and are thus in error.

To which you replied...

Here in lies the real issue I think. We get frustrated how people who calls themselves Christian live. Well, we just have to let God make that final judgment as to whether he ever knew them or not.

This is ultimately true, and it is also true that one who currently stands by faith could potentially not continue in that faith and be cut off. God will ultimately judge that one as well.

I will keep preaching to those who profess Jesus but don't seem to care about His commandments at all. I will consider such one's as never having been born again and will continue to tell them about Jesus.

Or it could be they have been born again but have backslidden quite a bit, in which case they need to be urged to repent and return to Christ. In either case, keep preaching Christ, brother. :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Steaver, first let me say that I appreciate the irenic tone of your post. It seems we do agree on several things, so I'll limit this reply mostly to what we still disagree on....

Thank you! And you have been also. We are brothers afterall :thumbs:

Well, it is indeed the issue. I think if it is possible for angels that were created holy, and were in the very presence of the Almighty, to rebel, then it is certainly possible for humans, who have come to a knowledge of the truth through Christ and who have in fact previously escaped the pollutions of the world, to do the same (see 2 Peter 2).

You could look at the angels and come to that conclusion I suppose, but couldn't one also look to the angel's status and say they have had their choice and that their choice once made has been sealed by God, for there is no more chance for the angels to change their positions before God.

Let me ask you two questions; 1) Do the scriptures tell us what is meant by escaping the pollutions of the world? 2) Does having knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ save a person?

I took notice when studying out this controversy that most all of the passages referenced to dismiss OSAS are never quite clear as to whether or not it is speaking about salvation at all. If Peter was speaking about the saved becoming lost again why not just say it plainly?

He could have said this, "For if, after being born of God through faith in the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in the world and overcome, they have become lost again". End of controversy! :thumbs:

I think here is where a good part of the misconception lies. The Apostle John wrote this:
"11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12)

Notice that eternal life is IN CHRIST--it's not located in us independent of our connection to Christ. This is further supported earlier in the epistle when John wrote:
" 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- " (1 John1:2)
So, again, we see that ETERNAL Life is located in the PERSON of Christ. He is ETERNAL--with no beginning or end. We only POSSESS this life in time when we embrace Christ. In otherwords, our possesion of eternal life is not eternal as it had a beginning point in time. And if we are ever severed from Christ through unbelief, then that possession of eternal life will also have an ending in time as well.

"12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life".

I believe you nailed this! Good exposition....except (sorry) for this "And if we are ever severed from Christ through unbelief, then that possession of eternal life will also have an ending in time as well".

You are missing the regeneration factor, new creation, new heart, two become one, born of God. It is a Father and son relationship. It is family. God will never send a child of His to hell. God will discipline, even take the mortal life thereof, but God will save His children! Praise Jesus!

Gotta go! Godspeed! :thumbs:

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Thank you! And you have been also. We are brothers afterall :thumbs:



You could look at the angels and come to that conclusion I suppose, but couldn't one also look to the angel's status and say they have had their choice and that their choice once made has been sealed by God, for there is no more chance for the angels to change their positions before God.

Let me ask you two questions; 1) Do the scriptures tell us what is meant by escaping the pollutions of the world? 2) Does having knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ save a person?

I took notice when studying out this controversy that most all of the passages referenced to dismiss OSAS are never quite clear as to whether or not it is speaking about salvation at all. If Peter was speaking about the saved becoming lost again why not just say it plainly?

He could have said this, "For if, after being born of God through faith in the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in the world and overcome, they have become lost again". End of controversy!



I believe you nailed this! Good exposition....except (sorry) for this "And if we are ever severed from Christ through unbelief, then that possession of eternal life will also have an ending in time as well".

You are missing the regeneration factor, new creation, new heart, two become one, born of God. It is a Father and son relationship. It is family. God will never send a child of His to hell. God will discipline, even take the mortal life thereof, but God will save His children! Praise Jesus!

Gotta go! Godspeed! :thumbs:

Thanks again for your gracious tone. We do seem to agree on several things, but at the end of the day there will still be things we will disagree about. I will go ahead and stop the discussion here, as I have already went against my stated intention on page 1 of this thread NOT to argue :smilewinkgrin:, and I've got to turn my attention to other things in my life.

So take care, and Godspeed to you as well. :thumbs: