Variations of Calvinism - Which Are You -- If Any

[Doubting Thomas]

There are many scriptures warning against unbelief.

Indeed there are, including the one I mentioned above in Heb 3:12, in which it warns 'HOLY BRETHREN' lest there be in any of THEM an evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING FROM the Living God. The writer doesn't make a distinction here between 'TRUE Holy brethren' and alleged 'pseudo-holy brethren'.

Peter says we should make our calling and election sure.

Indeed he does. Specifically he states: "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble (2 Peter 1:10).

So Peter is connecting making their "calling and election sure" with doing certain things--what things is he talking about? Well he LISTS them in vs.5-7 where he tells the brethren to add to their faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, patient, godliness, brotherly kindness and love. Peter states if those 'things' are theirs, they'll be "neither barren nor unfruitful in their knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:8)

OTOH, he states the one who "lacks these things"..."has forgotten he was cleansed from his old sins." (2 Peter 1:9). So let me ask you this: Can it be TRUE of one who has NEVER been truly saved that He had been truly cleansed from his old sins? IF NOT, then Peter is addressing those who HAD BEEN SAVED here, but ones who have become (or were at least in danger of becoming) barren and unfruitful in their knowlege of Christ, and who weren't making their calling and election sure and were thus in danger of stumbling and falling short of entering Christ's everlasting kingdom, which He supplies to the ones who DO diligently add those things to their faith (2 Peter 1:11).

In short, Peter can hardly be enlisted as one who supports OSAS.

Paul tells us to examine ourselves that Jesus Christ is really in us less we be found reprobates.

Yep, and Paul uses the same Greek word for reprobates (adokimos) in 2 Cor 13:5 (the verse you cited) as he does in 1 Cor 9:27--"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified (adokimos)"

In otherwords, Paul was aware of the possibility of he himself becoming reprobate/castaway/disqualified (whatever the translation) if he didn't perservere. He acknowledges in Philippians he had not already attained the resurrection of the dead, but he pressed on, not counting himself to have already apprehended or laid hold on it (Phil 3:12-14). He told the Colossians who had been reconciled by Christ (Col 1:21) that they would be presented holy and blameless in His sight (Col 1:22) IF they continued in the faith and are not moved AWAY from the hope of the Gospel (Col 1:23)

We have to base our doctrines upon the entirety of scripture.

Of course we must, and that includes the CONTEXTS of the verses that you just cited.

There are numerous scriptures which state we are sealed by the Holy Ghost unto redemption,

But none which state the seal is unbreakable nor imply the believer's relationship with the Spirit is perpetually static. To the contrary, in Scriptures believers enjoined to WALK in the Spirit (so they don't carry out the desires of the flesh), LIVE by the Spirit, be FILLED with the Spirit, SOW to the Spirit, and by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh. Conversely, believers are warned not to grieve or quench the Spirit nor insult the Spirit of grace.

It's only those believers ('brethren') who continue LIVE BY the Spirit and BY THE SPIRIT put to death the deeds of the flesh that will LIVE; those who persist rather in living according to the flesh will DIE (Rom 8-12-13). It is those who SOW to the Spirit and continue doing so that will REAP LIFE EVERLASTING if they don't lose heart (Gal 6:7-9)

we are kept by the power of God unto salvation, etc.

But you left out a part- We are "kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH for salvation" (1 Pet 1:5). If one loses or makes shipwreck their faith, they are no longer being kept by the power of God for salvation.

Likewise Paul states the believers "have access by faith into this grace in which we stand (present tense)" (Rom 5:2) and actually stand (present tense) by faith (Rom 11:20). No one has access into or stands in grace by a 'FALSE faith'; nor does one actually stand by a 'FALSE faith'. Yet, Paul warned those who were in fact standing by faith, that if they didn't continue they'd be CUT OFF, just has the unbelieving Jews already had (Rom 11:22).

The parable of the four soils is a great text explaining even Hebrews, how one can "believe" for awhile, but never come to repentence and regeneration. Only the fourth soil has been saved, regenerated.

But that's your mis-interpretation of the parable. Only the first soil has never been 'saved'--ie the seed was never planted. The other three soils were all planted by the SAME PERSON with the SAME SEED and the SAME PLANT starts to grow in all three cases. It's not as if the sower is sowing DIFFERENT seeds--some 'TRUE' and others 'FALSE'. Nor is it the case that DIFFERENT PLANTS are growing from the SAME TYPE of SEED--some 'TRUE' and others 'FALSE. ALL THREE have the SAME PLANT GROWING from the SAME SEED planted by the SAME PERSON, and it's only the CONDITION OF THE SOIL that makes the difference in their ultimate FRUITFULNESS. Can't you see it?

There are two aspects of salvation that gets missed and is why some mistakenly conclude one can be saved and then lost. 1) regeneration has not been fully studied out and understood. 2) faith alone is what saves, not obedience in that somehow a believers sin can cause them to stop believing.

The writer of Hebrews teaches otherwise.

Regeneration is an act of God, it is a NEW CREATION!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jesus Christ IN YOU!!!!!

Indeed, but we must continue to abide in Christ through a living faith which works through love. If branches IN CHRIST, do NOT abide in Christ, they will be taken out of the Vine.

God will convict His children, God will chastise His children.

Yes, one can submit to His discipline or despise it. One must repent when corrected. If one persists in impentinence, and is thus hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, he may be left with a dead fruitless 'faith' which can't save (per James 2) or may depart the living God altogether in an evil heart of unbelief (Heb 3).

God will not lose even one of His children for the glory of Jesus Christ!!

If children do not continue in His goodness, but rather persist in despising His correction, then they will be cast out of the Vine as fruitless branches.

If they stopped believing then they were one of the second or third soils.

TRUE

Never born-again.

NOT TRUE

 

[Revmitchell]

Some people seem to think that there is a angel running around with a pencil and an eraser:

Well he lost his salvation let me change the book

Oh wait he is saved a gain let me put him back in the book



Give me a break

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Some people seem to think that there is a angel running around with a pencil and an eraser:

Well he lost his salvation let me change the book

Oh wait he is saved a gain let me put him back in the book



Give me a break

I'm not sure if God has a pencil or an eraser, or any angels may be 'running around' with the same, but I do know that God told Moses:

"Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of my book." (Ex 32:33)

Also, JESUS told the folks at the Church at Sardis that: "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the book of Life.." (Rev 3:5)

Therefore, I hope no one would say to God/Jesus "Give me a break", simply because that particularly person may find absurd the idea of someone being actually removed from the book. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Indeed there are, including the one I mentioned above in Heb 3:12, in which it warns 'HOLY BRETHREN' lest there be in any of THEM an evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING FROM the Living God. The writer doesn't make a distinction here between 'TRUE Holy brethren' and alleged 'pseudo-holy brethren'.


Indeed he does. Specifically he states: "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble (2 Peter 1:10).

So Peter is connecting making their "calling and election sure" with doing certain things--what things is he talking about? Well he LISTS them in vs.5-7 where he tells the brethren to add to their faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, patient, godliness, brotherly kindness and love. Peter states if those 'things' are theirs, they'll be "neither barren nor unfruitful in their knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:8)

OTOH, he states the one who "lacks these things"..."has forgotten he was cleansed from his old sins." (2 Peter 1:9). So let me ask you this: Can it be TRUE of one who has NEVER been truly saved that He had been truly cleansed from his old sins? IF NOT, then Peter is addressing those who HAD BEEN SAVED here, but ones who have become (or were at least in danger of becoming) barren and unfruitful in their knowlege of Christ, and who weren't making their calling and election sure and were thus in danger of stumbling and falling short of entering Christ's everlasting kingdom, which He supplies to the ones who DO diligently add those things to their faith (2 Peter 1:11).

In short, Peter can hardly be enlisted as one who supports OSAS.


Yep, and Paul uses the same Greek word for reprobates (adokimos) in 2 Cor 13:5 (the verse you cited) as he does in 1 Cor 9:27--"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified (adokimos)"

In otherwords, Paul was aware of the possibility of he himself becoming reprobate/castaway/disqualified (whatever the translation) if he didn't perservere. He acknowledges in Philippians he had not already attained the resurrection of the dead, but he pressed on, not counting himself to have already apprehended or laid hold on it (Phil 3:12-14). He told the Colossians who had been reconciled by Christ (Col 1:21) that they would be presented holy and blameless in His sight (Col 1:22) IF they continued in the faith and are not moved AWAY from the hope of the Gospel (Col 1:23)

Of course we must, and that includes the CONTEXTS of the verses that you just cited.


But none which state the seal is unbreakable nor imply the believer's relationship with the Spirit is perpetually static. To the contrary, in Scriptures believers enjoined to WALK in the Spirit (so they don't carry out the desires of the flesh), LIVE by the Spirit, be FILLED with the Spirit, SOW to the Spirit, and by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh. Conversely, believers are warned not to grieve or quench the Spirit nor insult the Spirit of grace.

It's only those believers ('brethren') who continue LIVE BY the Spirit and BY THE SPIRIT put to death the deeds of the flesh that will LIVE; those who persist rather in living according to the flesh will DIE (Rom 8-12-13). It is those who SOW to the Spirit and continue doing so that will REAP LIFE EVERLASTING if they don't lose heart (Gal 6:7-9)



But you left out a part- We are "kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH for salvation" (1 Pet 1:5). If one loses or makes shipwreck their faith, they are no longer being kept by the power of God for salvation.



Likewise Paul states the believers "have access by faith into this grace in which we stand (present tense)" (Rom 5:2) and actually stand (present tense) by faith (Rom 11:20). No one has access into or stands in grace by a 'FALSE faith'; nor does one actually stand by a 'FALSE faith'. Yet, Paul warned those who were in fact standing by faith, that if they didn't continue they'd be CUT OFF, just has the unbelieving Jews already had (Rom 11:22).



But that's your mis-interpretation of the parable. Only the first soil has never been 'saved'--ie the seed was never planted. The other three soils were all planted by the SAME PERSON with the SAME SEED and the SAME PLANT starts to grow in all three cases. It's not as if the sower is sowing DIFFERENT seeds--some 'TRUE' and others 'FALSE'. Nor is it the case that DIFFERENT PLANTS are growing from the SAME TYPE of SEED--some 'TRUE' and others 'FALSE. ALL THREE have the SAME PLANT GROWING from the SAME SEED planted by the SAME PERSON, and it's only the CONDITION OF THE SOIL that makes the difference in their ultimate FRUITFULNESS. Can't you see it?


The writer of Hebrews teaches otherwise.


Indeed, but we must continue to abide in Christ through a living faith which works through love. If branches IN CHRIST, do NOT abide in Christ, they will be taken out of the Vine.


Yes, one can submit to His discipline or despise it. One must repent when corrected. If one persists in impentinence, and is thus hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, he may be left with a dead fruitless 'faith' which can't save (per James 2) or may depart the living God altogether in an evil heart of unbelief (Heb 3).


If children do not continue in His goodness, but rather persist in despising His correction, then they will be cast out of the Vine as fruitless branches.


TRUE


NOT TRUE

Excellent and scripturally accurate post!

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm not sure if God has a pencil or an eraser, or any angels may be 'running around' with the same, but I do know that God told Moses:

"Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of my book." (Ex 32:33)

Also, JESUS told the folks at the Church at Sardis that: "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the book of Life.." (Rev 3:5)

Therefore, I hope no one would say to God/Jesus "Give me a break", simply because that particularly person may find absurd the idea of someone being actually removed from the book. :smilewinkgrin:

And you actually believe the Exodus passage makes your case? So if we sin against God as believers we will lose our salvation?

 

[DHK]

I'm not sure if God has a pencil or an eraser, or any angels may be 'running around' with the same, but I do know that God told Moses:

"Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of my book." (Ex 32:33)

Also, JESUS told the folks at the Church at Sardis that: "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the book of Life.." (Rev 3:5)

Therefore, I hope no one would say to God/Jesus "Give me a break", simply because that particularly person may find absurd the idea of someone being actually removed from the book. :smilewinkgrin:

Scripture does not contradict Scripture. It is a matter of understanding.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[steaver]

I'm not sure if God has a pencil or an eraser, or any angels may be 'running around' with the same, but I do know that God told Moses:

"Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of my book." (Ex 32:33)

Also, JESUS told the folks at the Church at Sardis that: "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the book of Life.." (Rev 3:5)

Therefore, I hope no one would say to God/Jesus "Give me a break", simply because that particularly person may find absurd the idea of someone being actually removed from the book. :smilewinkgrin:

You see, before I came to my conclusion of OSAS I worked this out to it's logical end as you just did and what happens? You now have a born of God Christian who sins going to hell. So then a Christian then must be sinless. This is why I concluded OSAS, for it is by grace through faith that I am saved, and not by my ability to abstain from sin.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You see, before I came to my conclusion of OSAS I worked this out to it's logical end as you just did and what happens? You now have a born of God Christian who sins going to hell. So then a Christian then must be sinless. This is why I concluded OSAS, for it is by grace through faith that I am saved, and not by my ability to abstain from sin.

That is faulty reasoning and an erroneous conclusion.

Those who believe you can forfeit salvation do not believe that you do that simply by sinning; we all sin every day.

 

[steaver]

That is faulty reasoning and an erroneous conclusion.

Those who believe you can forfeit salvation do not believe that you do that simply by sinning; we all sin every day.

You cannot make that blanket statement, DT brought sin into the equasion, quoting scripture which states that the man who sins will be blotted out.

So how do you see one forfeiting salvation?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You cannot make that blanket statement, DT brought sin into the equasion, quoting scripture which states that the man who sins will be blotted out.

So how do you see one forfeiting salvation?

I've probably answered this before, but here goes: I think it could happen in at least a couple of ways. I believe one has the freedom to in effect change his mind, to deliberately and willfully turn his back on God and reject his salvation. Another way, I believe, is that a person could decide to stop following Jesus and return to willful sinning and continue in unrepentant sin until he dies. Now Charles Stanley, as I understand his position, thinks a person can cease to believe and still be saved. I disagree.

As I posted elsewhere, I am not of the crowd that thinks you can be saved one day and lost the next, saved the next day and lost the following day, etc., like a revolving door. That's one extreme. The other is the OSAS/eternal security position where you can not be lost no matter what you do.

So, I hold to the original General Baptist position that was held by the first English Baptists such as Helwys and others: That, having been saved, you can forfeit your salvation by a willful and final rejection of God and Jesus.

Thanks for asking the question and giving me a chance to explain in a calm way without getting into a dogfight with anyone over it.

 

[Amy.G]

...having been saved, you can forfeit your salvation by a willful and final rejection of God and Jesus.

Why would anyone do that? Why would someone willfully reject Christ who gave them eternal life and willfully accept going to hell?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Why would anyone do that? Why would someone willfully reject Christ who gave them eternal life and willfully accept going to hell?

There are a variety of reasons why. I could get a lot more personal with this, but I won't. By that I mean something that applies to me personally, but I'd rather not go into it, if you don't mind.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There are a variety of reasons why. I could get a lot more personal with this, but I won't. By that I mean something that applies to me personally, but I'd rather not go into it, if you don't mind.

So in other words, Any's question will continue to hang out there because you deflect it by saying that its personal & you dont want to discuss it. If I were you, after getting into this discussion, answer it in a general way so you dont compromise your private personal situation while at least attempting an answer.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

You see, before I came to my conclusion of OSAS...

Steaver, I decided to respond to this to let you know that for most of my life I did in fact believe in OSAS. I was taught that doctrine as a Southern Baptist, and I went to great lengths to defend it, and to make sure I could get the Scriptures to agree with it. There were always several passages that made me uncomfortable in the back of my mind, but for the most part I was able to more or less disregard those doubts as I continued to use arguments that I learned (such as you and others here have been using) to convince myself that OSAS was correct afterall. However, about 10-11 years ago, I really started allowing myself to feel the full weight of these uncomfortable passages and then I quickly realized that OSAS was incorrect. I realized that the believers' security was conditioned on him continuing to, well, be a BELIEVER. And according to Scriptures saving faith is not something that exists only in the intellectual realm, but is that which works through love. That's the only faith that avails for anyting in Christ Jesus (GAL 5:6) and that's the kind of faith that a Believer must continue to have in order to continue to abide in Christ.

I worked this out to it's logical end as you just did and what happens? You now have a born of God Christian who sins going to hell.

Based on the Scriptural evidence, as I noted above, that's certainly a distinct possibility. We shouldn't let our presuppositions about what we think can or must be possible regarding 'born of God Christians' overrule what Scriptures actually teaches is possible.

So then a Christian then must be sinless.

No, that does NOT logically follow at all. Within the realm of grace there is room for growth and there is room for discipline (as you pointed out in a previous post) and subsequent confession/repentance. However, as I pointed out above, one can choose to submit to God's correction and continue in the faith, or one can persistently DESPISE His correction and so harden himself to the point where he no longer has a lively fruit producing faith in Christ.

This is why I concluded OSAS, for it is by grace through faith that I am saved, and not by my ability to abstain from sin.

I too believe that it is by grace through faith that I am saved. However, God keeps us by His power THROUGH faith, and if our faith ever becomes shipwreck or fruitless and thus DEAD, then we are no longer being saved by grace through faith, as a DEAD or shipwrecked faith doesn't save.

I am not depending on my natural ability to abstain from sin. I am relying on God's grace in CHRIST through the HOLY SPIRIT. I acknowledge that I still struggle with sin, and will continue to do as long as I have this fleshly body. Yet, I am grateful that when I do sin I have an Advocate with the Father, and if I confess my sin He is faithful to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. I am grateful that I have the Spirit interceding for my weakness with groanings which cannot be uttered, and I am grateful that by the Spirit I can mortify the deeds of the flesh, as I do so, I am progressively being sanctified.

I am secure a long as I continue to abide in the Vine, and God has given me (and continues to give me) the grace to do so. However, one who persistently and unrepentantly disobeys God's commands is by definition not abiding in Christ, as the Apostle John stated: "Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him" (1 John 3:24). Neither I nor anyone else keep his commandments perfectly, but it is the presence and ministry of the Holy Spirit that assists in our weaknessess (Romans 8:26) and convicts us when we do sin so we can confess and repent and thus continue on the path of sanctification (if we submit to Him and not continue to, and finally, resist Him, grieve Him or quench Him ).

I can make my calling and election sure (2 Peter1:10) as I diligently add to my faith, virtue, knowlege, self-control, patience, godliness, kindness, and love (2 Peter 1:5-8) because He has already given me all things that pertain to life and godliness in my knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 1:3).

I can work out my salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who works in me both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

So, no, I do NOT believe that person needs to be sinless to be saved or stay saved, or that one loses his salvation every single time he sins. OTOH, and at the same time, I also do NOT believe that a Christian is permanantly and irrevocably saved regardless however he chooses to live his life after coming to Christ. Both ideas are unbiblical extremes and are thus in error. In this Christian walk, we need to maintain the balance by embracing both His promises and His warnings.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

So in other words, Any's question will continue to hang out there because you deflect it by saying that its personal & you dont want to discuss it. If I were you, after getting into this discussion, answer it in a general way so you dont compromise your private personal situation while at least attempting an answer.

Very well.

"Hypothetical" situation #1: A person grows up in a Christian home, publicly professes Jesus in early teen years, and remains committed Christian till age thirty. This person was only ever exposed to fundamentalism, and he didn't go to college. Because of a traumatic event, this person starts researching beliefs, he gets exposed to everything from evolution, to liberal Christianity, to other religion, to atheism. Person begins to doubt his earlier beliefs and what he was taught. Within a year, he goes from from being an avid fundamentalist to being an atheist or an agnostic, he's still not sure which. He completely rejects his once-strong faith in Jesus.

Now I can just hear all the excuses and rationalizations: ohm he was never saved, blah, blah, blah. But no one can say this. So, if this person dies in this condition, will he have forfeited his salvation?

"Hypothetical" situation #2: Person grows up similarly to case #1. At about age 20, things happen in his life that he can't reconcile with his upbringing and his faith. He can't reconcile the extreme suffering in the world with the portrait of the Christian God. He becomes an agnostic. So, if he had died in this state, would he have gone to hell?

It is abundantly clear to me both from scripture first and then from experience that we have the freedom to abandon our faith once having received it, just as we had the freedom to accept it or reject it in the first place. I am absolutely convinced of this; there is not one iota of doubt in my mind about it.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Steaver, I decided to respond to this to let you know that for most of my life I did in fact believe in OSAS. I was taught that doctrine as a Southern Baptist, and I went to great lengths to defend it, and to make sure I could get the Scriptures to agree with it. There were always several passages that made me uncomfortable in the back of my mind, but for the most part I was able to more or less disregard those doubts as I continued to use arguments that I learned (such as you and others here have been using) to convince myself that OSAS was correct afterall. However, about 10-11 years ago, I really started allowing myself to feel the full weight of these uncomfortable passages and then I quickly realized that OSAS was incorrect. I realized that the believers' security was conditioned on him continuing to, well, be a BELIEVER. And according to Scriptures saving faith is not something that exists only in the intellectual realm, but is that which works through love. That's the only faith that avails for anyting in Christ Jesus (GAL 5:6) and that's the kind of faith that a Believer must continue to have in order to continue to abide in Christ.



Based on the Scriptural evidence, as I noted above, that's certainly a distinct possibility. We shouldn't let our presuppositions about what we think can or must be possible regarding 'born of God Christians' overrule what Scriptures actually teaches is possible.


No, that does NOT logically follow at all. Within the realm of grace there is room for growth and there is room for discipline (as you pointed out in a previous post) and subsequent confession/repentance. However, as I pointed out above, one can choose to submit to God's correction and continue in the faith, or one can persistently DESPISE His correction and so harden himself to the point where he no longer has a lively fruit producing faith in Christ.


I too believe that it is by grace through faith that I am saved. However, God keeps us by His power THROUGH faith, and if our faith ever becomes shipwreck or fruitless and thus DEAD, then we are no longer being saved by grace through faith, as a DEAD or shipwrecked faith doesn't save.

I am not depending on my natural ability to abstain from sin. I am relying on God's grace in CHRIST through the HOLY SPIRIT. I acknowledge that I still struggle with sin, and will continue to do as long as I have this fleshly body. Yet, I am grateful that when I do sin I have an Advocate with the Father, and if I confess my sin He is faithful to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. I am grateful that I have the Spirit interceding for my weakness with groanings which cannot be uttered, and I am grateful that by the Spirit I can mortify the deeds of the flesh, as I do so, I am progressively being sanctified.

I am secure a long as I continue to abide in the Vine, and God has given me (and continues to give me) the grace to do so. However, one who persistently and unrepentantly disobeys God's commands is by definition not abiding in Christ, as the Apostle John stated: "Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him" (1 John 3:24). Neither I nor anyone else keep his commandments perfectly, but it is the presence and ministry of the Holy Spirit that assists in our weaknessess (Romans 8:26) and convicts us when we do sin so we can confess and repent and thus continue on the path of sanctification (if we submit to Him and not continue to, and finally, resist Him, grieve Him or quench Him ).

I can make my calling and election sure (2 Peter1:10) as I diligently add to my faith, virtue, knowlege, self-control, patience, godliness, kindness, and love (2 Peter 1:5-8) because He has already given me all things that pertain to life and godliness in my knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 1:3).

I can work out my salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who works in me both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

So, no, I do NOT believe that person needs to be sinless to be saved or stay saved, or that one loses his salvation every single time he sins. OTOH, and at the same time, I also do NOT believe that a Christian is permanantly and irrevocably saved regardless however he chooses to live his life after coming to Christ. Both ideas are unbiblical extremes and are thus in error. In this Christian walk, we need to maintain the balance by embracing both His promises and His warnings.

That is one of the best things I have read on the subject. Excellent!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

That is one of the best things I have read on the subject. Excellent!

Thanks for the kind words!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Thanks for the kind words!

yw.....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Very well.

"Hypothetical" situation #1: A person grows up in a Christian home, publicly professes Jesus in early teen years, and remains committed Christian till age thirty. This person was only ever exposed to fundamentalism, and he didn't go to college. Because of a traumatic event, this person starts researching beliefs, he gets exposed to everything from evolution, to liberal Christianity, to other religion, to atheism. Person begins to doubt his earlier beliefs and what he was taught. Within a year, he goes from from being an avid fundamentalist to being an atheist or an agnostic, he's still not sure which. He completely rejects his once-strong faith in Jesus.

Now I can just hear all the excuses and rationalizations: ohm he was never saved, blah, blah, blah. But no one can say this. So, if this person dies in this condition, will he have forfeited his salvation?

My Answer: He was never truly saved.

"Hypothetical" situation #2: Person grows up similarly to case #1. At about age 20, things happen in his life that he can't reconcile with his upbringing and his faith. He can't reconcile the extreme suffering in the world with the portrait of the Christian God. He becomes an agnostic. So, if he had died in this state, would he have gone to hell?

My answer: Nope, he is just a backslider (and he will suffer greatly for it till he recognizes & repents of his mistakes.)

 

[Thomas Helwys]

My Answer: He was never truly saved.





My answer: Nope, he is just a backslider (and he will suffer greatly for it till he recognizes & repents of his mistakes.)

I knew you and others would say that. It is the stock answer.

I know as much as it's possible to know that both these people were truly saved. There is absolutely no question in my mind about it.

There is no way in the world that anyone can say with certainty that people like these were never really saved. I, knowing them personally, can say far more certainly that they were indeed saved.