Variations of Calvinism - Which Are You -- If Any

[Thomas Helwys]

How can you say kept against one's will when one had accepted the offer of grace? Are you saying that once saved, a person will always change their mind? I am not following. I believe u to a point. I believe that no one would ever be saved if God the Father did not send God the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. But I don't believe that man does not have a choice to accept the gift of God, or walk away. Once man has accepted, and the Holy Spirit takes up residence, then how can man ever walk away then? In 30 years I have never wanted to walk away from God, so I am not understanding how I have been kept against my will. I was there when God moved in, and I can tell you, salvation is by grace thru faith, but the peace of God that stirred my soul is indescribable. Why would I ever walk away from that? Some seemingly walk away after making a confession. I do not believe the confession was ever real, but God will be their judge, not me. No, I am not following what you mean, but that might be because I can't think too well.

No, I am saying that they have the freedom to change their mind, and if they do, God will not hold them against their will.

Does that clarify what I mean?

Hey, don't worry. Sometimes I can't think too well, either.

 

[quantumfaith]

No, I am saying that they have the freedom to change their mind, and if they do, God will not hold them against their will.

Does that clarify what I mean?

Hey, don't worry. Sometimes I can't think too well, either.

Thomas, do you believe, as do many Methodists, that ones status of "saved" can be lost by any means....such as personal renouncement?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Thomas, do you believe, as do many Methodists, that ones status of "saved" can be lost by any means....such as personal renouncement?

Personal renouncement? I'd say yes. Lost by any means? Not sure I'd say that. Not sure actually what you mean by that.

 

[steaver]

No, I am saying that they have the freedom to change their mind, and if they do, God will not hold them against their will.

Does that clarify what I mean?

Hey, don't worry. Sometimes I can't think too well, either.

I have yet to meet a Christian, who believes as you do on this, that also believes their own salvation is questionable. They always say as you have here..."they".....never "I"......could change my mind. Be honest here Thomas, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot stop believing in that which you have a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth. Just won't happen.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I have yet to meet a Christian, who believes as you do on this, that also believes their own salvation is questionable. They always say as you have here..."they".....never "I"......could change my mind. Be honest here Thomas, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot stop believing in that which you have a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth. Just won't happen.

Yet, one can read testimonies of those who are now professed atheists/agnostics who once believed the Gospel and thought they were (during the time of their belief) saved and headed to heaven. The writer of Hebrews warns the 'holy brethren' whom he addresses to beware 'lest there be in any of THEM and evil heart of unbelief in the departing from the living God' (3:12) and against being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (3:13). If these things weren't actually possible it would have been superfluous to warn of such.

Paul actually told the Corinthians (who were standing in the Gospel by which they were being saved) that it was possible to have believed in vain IF they didn't hold fast the word which he preached to them (1 Cor 15:1-2)

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I have yet to meet a Christian, who believes as you do on this, that also believes their own salvation is questionable. They always say as you have here..."they".....never "I"......could change my mind. Be honest here Thomas, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot stop believing in that which you have a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth. Just won't happen.

I guess you have not met any Methodists, Holiness, Pentecostals, Charismatics, General Baptists, Free Will Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Mennonites, Brethren........

I am honest, and I know I have the freedom to stop believing.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Originally Posted by steaver
I have yet to meet a Christian, who believes as you do on this, that also believes their own salvation is questionable. They always say as you have here..."they".....never "I"......could change my mind. Be honest here Thomas, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot stop believing in that which you have a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth. Just won't happen.

God did not make humans as puppets on his string to pull or not as He likes.

He made us thinking beings. He loves us enough to allow us to make choices, even the choice to accept or refuse him.

 

[steaver]

Yet, one can read testimonies of those who are now professed atheists/agnostics who once believed the Gospel and thought they were (during the time of their belief) saved and headed to heaven. The writer of Hebrews warns the 'holy brethren' whom he addresses to beware 'lest there be in any of THEM and evil heart of unbelief in the departing from the living God' (3:12) and against being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (3:13). If these things weren't actually possible it would have been superfluous to warn of such.

Paul actually told the Corinthians (who were standing in the Gospel by which they were being saved) that it was possible to have believed in vain IF they didn't hold fast the word which he preached to them (1 Cor 15:1-2)

The Scripture declares there are false converts. Only God knows with an absolute knowledge those who are His (born of God). The Scriptures are given to the church for instruction and discipleship. You know full well the church has unbelievers among us, thus, it is quite understandable that all of these warnings given to the church are for those believers and those unbelievers alike.

Could you please explain how you could stop believing in that which you have a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth?

 

[steaver]

I guess you have not met any Methodists, Holiness, Pentecostals, Charismatics, General Baptists, Free Will Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Mennonites, Brethren........

I am honest, and I know I have the freedom to stop believing.

Look at yourself in a mirror and convince yourself that you do not exist.

 

[steaver]

God did not make humans as puppets on his string to pull or not as He likes.

He made us thinking beings. He loves us enough to allow us to make choices, even the choice to accept or refuse him.

Amen! And once one makes that choice to allow God to enter in and regenerate them it is finished. The new heart now knows God and loves God. Two become one, a NEW creation!! Praise Jesus!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Look at yourself in a mirror and convince yourself that you do not exist.

Yes & then your conscience will have to turn to stone.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

The Scripture declares there are false converts. Only God knows with an absolute knowledge those who are His (born of God).

But that has nothing to do with the warning in the particular Scripture that I just referenced, which was addressed to 'holy brethren' (ie False converts are NOT 'holy brethren)

The Scriptures are given to the church for instruction and discipleship. You know full well the church has unbelievers among us, thus, it is quite understandable that all of these warnings given to the church are for those believers and those unbelievers alike.

But the particular passage I quoted was not a warning to false converts or those who were already unbelievers. The warning was to 'Holy Brethren' (3:1), telling them to beware lest there was in 'any of' THEM and evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING from the living God (3:12). False Converts can't depart from the living God because they were never with the Living God; nor were they ever 'holy brethren' who had never really believed to begin with!

Similar Scriptures could easily be given that have the same warning--that REAL believers can make shipwreck of their faith (i.e. believe in vain) and thus fall from grace [can't fall from something you were never in!] as one is cut off from Christ [can't be cut off from something you were never in!] in whom one was standing by faith (John 15:1-6; Rom 11:18-23, etc)

Could you please explain how you could stop believing in that which you have a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth?

Heb 3:13 which I quoted above shows one way. If one is not careful, one can be so hardened by the deceitfulness of sin that he departs from God in unbelief. By being hardened to the Holy Spirit (rather than repenting in response to His conviction), one's faith can die.

In the parable of the sower, Christ speaks of those who believe for a while (Luke 8:13), and who actually are said to have something living which starts to grow the soil of their hearts, but whose soil is either (1) too shallow (never cultivated/deepened) and thus they fall away (Luke 8:13) and lose faith* (Matt 13:21) when things get tough, or (2) is too cluttered with wordly things (that are never removed) that they ultimately become unfruitful (Matt 13:22)

(*Again, you can't LOSE something you never had, and Jesus does NOT say that this was a FALSE faith that they had lost!)

As I said above, I've read the testimony of atheists and agnostics who were at one time convinced that God was real and that Christianity was true. Yet, for whatever reason, either through continued unrepentant sin, or through the continued feeding of creeping intellectual doubts (rather than feeding faith), they stopped believing.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Amen! And once one makes that choice to allow God to enter in and regenerate them it is finished. The new heart now knows God and loves God. Two become one, a NEW creation!! Praise Jesus!

And that new creation still has a mind and a will. Praise Jesus!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

But that has nothing to do with the warning in the particular Scripture that I just referenced, which was addressed to 'holy brethren' (ie False converts are NOT 'holy brethren)


But the particular passage I quoted was not a warning to false converts or those who were already unbelievers. The warning was to 'Holy Brethren' (3:1), telling them to beware lest there was in 'any of' THEM and evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING from the living God (3:12). False Converts can't depart from the living God because they were never with the Living God; nor were they ever 'holy brethren' who had never really believed to begin with!

Similar Scriptures could easily be given that have the same warning--that REAL believers can make shipwreck of their faith (i.e. believe in vain) and thus fall from grace [can't fall from something you were never in!] as one is cut off from Christ [can't be cut off from something you were never in!] in whom one was standing by faith (John 15:1-6; Rom 11:18-23, etc)


Heb 3:13 which I quoted above shows one way. If one is not careful, one can be so hardened by the deceitfulness of sin that he departs from God in unbelief. By being hardened to the Holy Spirit (rather than repenting in response to His conviction), one's faith can die.

In the parable of the sower, Christ speaks of those who believe for a while (Luke 8:13), and who actually are said to have something living which starts to grow the soil of their hearts, but whose soil is either (1) too shallow (never cultivated/deepened) and thus they fall away (Luke 8:13) and lose faith* (Matt 13:21) when things get tough, or (2) is too cluttered with wordly things (that are never removed) that they ultimately become unfruitful (Matt 13:22)

(*Again, you can't LOSE something you never had, and Jesus does NOT say that this was a FALSE faith that they had lost!)

As I said above, I've read the testimony of atheists and agnostics who were at one time convinced that God was real and that Christianity was true. Yet, for whatever reason, either through continued unrepentant sin, or through the continued feeding of creeping intellectual doubts (rather than feeding faith), they stopped believing.

Thank you for posting scriptural truth and clarity.

 

[steaver]

But that has nothing to do with the warning in the particular Scripture that I just referenced, which was addressed to 'holy brethren' (ie False converts are NOT 'holy brethren)


But the particular passage I quoted was not a warning to false converts or those who were already unbelievers. The warning was to 'Holy Brethren' (3:1), telling them to beware lest there was in 'any of' THEM and evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING from the living God (3:12). False Converts can't depart from the living God because they were never with the Living God; nor were they ever 'holy brethren' who had never really believed to begin with!

Similar Scriptures could easily be given that have the same warning--that REAL believers can make shipwreck of their faith (i.e. believe in vain) and thus fall from grace [can't fall from something you were never in!] as one is cut off from Christ [can't be cut off from something you were never in!] in whom one was standing by faith (John 15:1-6; Rom 11:18-23, etc)


Heb 3:13 which I quoted above shows one way. If one is not careful, one can be so hardened by the deceitfulness of sin that he departs from God in unbelief. By being hardened to the Holy Spirit (rather than repenting in response to His conviction), one's faith can die.

In the parable of the sower, Christ speaks of those who believe for a while (Luke 8:13), and who actually are said to have something living which starts to grow the soil of their hearts, but whose soil is either (1) too shallow (never cultivated/deepened) and thus they fall away (Luke 8:13) and lose faith* (Matt 13:21) when things get tough, or (2) is too cluttered with wordly things (that are never removed) that they ultimately become unfruitful (Matt 13:22)

(*Again, you can't LOSE something you never had, and Jesus does NOT say that this was a FALSE faith that they had lost!)

As I said above, I've read the testimony of atheists and agnostics who were at one time convinced that God was real and that Christianity was true. Yet, for whatever reason, either through continued unrepentant sin, or through the continued feeding of creeping intellectual doubts (rather than feeding faith), they stopped believing.

There are many scriptures warning against unbelief. Peter says we should make our calling and election sure. Paul tells us to examine ourselves that Jesus Christ is really in us less we be found reprobates. We have to base our doctrines upon the entirety of scripture. There are numerous scriptures which state we are sealed by the Holy Ghost unto redemption, we are kept by the power of God unto salvation, etc.

The parable of the four soils is a great text explaining even Hebrews, how one can "believe" for awhile, but never come to repentence and regeneration. Only the fourth soil has been saved, regenerated.

There are two aspects of salvation that gets missed and is why some mistakenly conclude one can be saved and then lost. 1) regeneration has not been fully studied out and understood. 2) faith alone is what saves, not obedience in that somehow a believers sin can cause them to stop believing. Regeneration is an act of God, it is a NEW CREATION!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jesus Christ IN YOU!!!!! God will convict His children, God will chastise His children. God will not lose even one of His children for the glory of Jesus Christ!! Even if He has to bring them out of this world because of their rebellion through premature death. Paul said many "sleep" because of their sins, and he was speaking of Christians.

If they stopped believing then they were one of the second or third soils. Never born-again.

 

[steaver]

And that new creation still has a mind and a will. Praise Jesus!

Well, I don't know about praise Jesus. My mind and will gets me in alot of sin. I say praise Jesus that one day my mind and will will be in perfect harmony with His in the resurrection! Oh to be like Him, Oh to be like Him!! A hymn goes something like that. raying:

 

[Winman]

There are many scriptures warning against unbelief. Peter says we should make our calling and election sure. Paul tells us to examine ourselves that Jesus Christ is really in us less we be found reprobates. We have to base our doctrines upon the entirety of scripture. There are numerous scriptures which state we are sealed by the Holy Ghost unto redemption, we are kept by the power of God unto salvation, etc.

The parable of the four soils is a great text explaining even Hebrews, how one can "believe" for awhile, but never come to repentence and regeneration. Only the fourth soil has been saved, regenerated.

There are two aspects of salvation that gets missed and is why some mistakenly conclude one can be saved and then lost. 1) regeneration has not been fully studied out and understood. 2) faith alone is what saves, not obedience in that somehow a believers sin can cause them to stop believing. Regeneration is an act of God, it is a NEW CREATION!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jesus Christ IN YOU!!!!! God will convict His children, God will chastise His children. God will not lose even one of His children for the glory of Jesus Christ!! Even if He has to bring them out of this world because of their rebellion through premature death. Paul said many "sleep" because of their sins, and he was speaking of Christians.

If they stopped believing then they were one of the second or third soils. Never born-again.

Folks read into scripture what is not there. The parable of the soils does not teach that the seed that fell among thorns and the seed that fell upon rocky soil is lost, it says they DID NOT BEAR FRUIT.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The seed that fell by the wayside was lost. It never took root, it never sprang into life, the devil came and took what was sown (the word of God) away. This soil did not believe.

The seed on rocky soil and the seed among thorns took root and sprang into life. Anyone who believes is saved (vs. 12), only they brought forth no fruit, that is, they did not go out and preach the word and bring others to Christ.

The good soil is those who go forth in patience and preach the word and bring many to Christ.

This parable DOES NOT say the rocky and thorny soil were lost, it says they did not bring forth fruit.

Folks should not read into scripture what is not there.

 

[Yeshua1]

Folks read into scripture what is not there. The parable of the soils does not teach that the seed that fell among thorns and the seed that fell upon rocky soil is lost, it says they DID NOT BEAR FRUIT.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The seed that fell by the wayside was lost. It never took root, it never sprang into life, the devil came and took what was sown (the word of God) away. This soil did not believe.

The seed on rocky soil and the seed among thorns took root and sprang into life. Anyone who believes is saved (vs. 12), only they brought forth no fruit, that is, they did not go out and preach the word and bring others to Christ.

The good soil is those who go forth in patience and preach the word and bring many to Christ.

This parable DOES NOT say the rocky and thorny soil were lost, it says they did not bring forth fruit.

Folks should not read into scripture what is not there.

the first 3 groups were NOT saved persons, only the fourth one brought fruit to show genuine slavation had happened!

 

[Winman]

the first 3 groups were NOT saved persons, only the fourth one brought fruit to show genuine slavation had happened!

I disagree, only the wayside soil was shown not to have believed. Folks read, but they do not comprehend.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Verse 12 tells us the way side soil did not believe, lest they should be saved. The moment any person believes on Jesus they pass from death to life and shall not come into condemnation.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

We are told in Luke 8:13 that the soil that fell on rocky ground believed for a while. If they believed, then they passed from death to life and shall not come into condemnation. Jesus does not lie. If the rocky soil believed for a while and then lost their salvation, then Jesus's promise is not true.

I believe Jesus. Only the way side did not believe and was lost. The rocky soil and thorny soil believed, but did not bring fruit to perfection. They did not go out and live for Jesus and bring others to Christ. The fruit of any Christian is more Christians.

 

[steaver]

Folks read into scripture what is not there. The parable of the soils does not teach that the seed that fell among thorns and the seed that fell upon rocky soil is lost, it says they DID NOT BEAR FRUIT.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The seed that fell by the wayside was lost. It never took root, it never sprang into life, the devil came and took what was sown (the word of God) away. This soil did not believe.

The seed on rocky soil and the seed among thorns took root and sprang into life. Anyone who believes is saved (vs. 12), only they brought forth no fruit, that is, they did not go out and preach the word and bring others to Christ.

The good soil is those who go forth in patience and preach the word and bring many to Christ.

This parable DOES NOT say the rocky and thorny soil were lost, it says they did not bring forth fruit.

Folks should not read into scripture what is not there.

I don't believe I was guilty of reading something into the text, I base my conclusions upon the whole of scripture. Jesus said this in the gospel of John;

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

John says Jesus was speaking to those Jews which "believed on him". Jesus said only if they continue in His word would they be made free (born of God). This harmonizes with those soils which do not continue on unto salvation or rebirth. By the end of Jesus' teaching in this passage these "believers" where picking up stones to kill Him. They proved not to be good soil.