Virgin born

[Rev. Joshua]

Originally posted by Helen:
Getting back to the subject of this thread, though, neither of you have answered why Joseph reacted the way he did to Mary's pregnancy. If he thought he might be the father, he would not have had it in mind to divorce her, but to marry her as soon as possible. So either Mary was virgin or a tramp. Your choice.

Helen, if the virgin birth accounts are later additions to the tradition, we have no idea how Joseph reacted to the news. What we have instead are either two older story retrofitted to accomodate the story of Jesus or new ones that grew up around his legacy. Either way, included the response of the indignant father would have been part of the whole story, not an independently preserved tradition.

As to your blanket generalization about liberal churches - I have a few I'd like you to visit to see how wrong you are.

Joshua

 

[Justified]

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua Villines:

Helen, if the virgin birth accounts are later additions to the tradition, we have no idea how Joseph reacted to the news. What we have instead are either two older story retrofitted to accomodate the story of Jesus or new ones that grew up around his legacy. Either way, included the response of the indignant father would have been part of the whole story, not an independently preserved tradition.

It's obvious what is going on here! Joshua and post-it and others that don't believe in the Virgin Birth, then obviously believe in a "Sinful Jesus", thus they don't believe in the same "Sinless Jesus" we do. That means that their Jesus could not give them the Salvation, that our Jesus gave us.

But, they do believe the lies of their father!

"It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version

 

[Helen]

In other words, Joshua, if you don't believe it then of course it wasn't there originally.

How silly of me. How silly of the early Christians to fall for such an addition. How silly of us all not to depend on man's wisdom rather than God's power to preserve His Word...

In the meantime, between my deaf interpreting and my husband's speaking in various churches, I have visited an incredible variety.

I stand by what I said.

 

[Gina B]

Here's what the bible says, plain and simple. You either believe it or you don't.
There's no deep interpretation or special language skills needed to understand what these verses say.
By the way, and NOT that the concept of the virgin birth isn't plain to see, but I don't recall any other people in the bible being conceived "in the womb". I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Normal conception happens outside the womb and the fertilized egg then moves into the womb days later.

Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Mt 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

An angel came to...Lu 1:27
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Angel tells her she will conceive, Mary asks
Lu 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Angel replies
Lu 1:35a And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee..

Chrys

 

[LadyEagle]

quote: SheEagle911

The virgin birth is one of the cornerstones of your salvation and mine, not just some "radical" Baptist doctrine, easily dismissed, as you would have us believe.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post-it:

No, that is incorrect, salvation through the risen Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of salvation, not a story about his past history in which no requirement in the belief of a virgin birth was placed as a prerequisite of being saved.

You are half correct, post-it.

Salvation through the Risen Jesus Christ is one of the pillars of our Salvation. The other pillar upon which our Salvation rests is the Virgin Birth. Take either of those two away, and there is no Salvation.

I repeat, the virgin birth is one of the cornerstones (or pillars) of yours & my salvation.

Here's why...without the virgin birth, Jesus Christ would have been born of sin, and thus could have not presented as the sacrifice for sin before a Holy & Righteous God.

Here's why.

Rom.5
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All have sinned. Starting with Adam, sin has passed on through the race of mankind, from Adam, through the man & his seed. Death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.

The sin offering, atonement for sin had to be spotless. (male without blemish)

Lev. 1

[3] If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
[4] And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Jesus Christ could not have fit the requirement as my sin offering if he had been born of Adam's seed, which was cursed. He could only have been my (and your) substitution if he was spotless, without sin. Thus, the Holy Spirit came upon the virgin. Through one man, Adam, sin entered the human race. Through one Man, Jesus, the Son of God, redeemed the human race.

I Peter 1:[18] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[20] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
[21] Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Without the Virgin Birth Jesus Christ would have been born from the seed of sin, Adam. He would not have qualified before a Righteous & Holy God to be the spotless Lamb, taking all sin onto Himself, as my Substitute for Sin. He would have been merely a mortal man, a prophet, not the Son of God.

You state: "salvation through the risen Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of salvation."

Lazarus died & Jesus raised him from the dead. But Lazarus can't give me salvation. He was not the spotless sacrifical Lamb, for he was born through the seed of mankind.

So now you have the whole truth.

Salvation through the Risen Jesus Christ is one of the pillars of our Salvation. The other pillar upon which our Salvation rests is the Virgin Birth. Take either of those two away, and there is no Salvation.

I am telling you the truth in love. Cherish the virgin birth.

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Originally posted by Justified:
It's obvious what is going on here! Joshua and post-it and others that don't believe in the Virgin Birth, then obviously believe in a "Sinful Jesus", thus they don't believe in the same "Sinless Jesus" we do. That means that their Jesus could not give them the Salvation, that our Jesus gave us.

But, they do believe the lies of their father!

Justified, who do you believe my father to be. If you are trying to say that I am anything other than your brother in Christ and that I am in fact a servant of Satan then I expect either an apology or for a moderator to rein you in.

For the record:

- I believe that Jesus was completely sinless
- I do not believe that Jesus had to be immaculately conceived to be born without sin. I'm not Roman Catholic, so I don't see any heresy in that belief.
- I do, however, believe that Jesus was born of a virgin because that is the historical belief of the Church.
- Nevertheless, I understand the arguments that the virgin birth was a later addition to the tradition and therefore think that it's an appropriate topic for discussion (without vitriolic, personal attacks) in this format.
- I likewise do not question someone's salvation if they question the virgin birth.

Joshua

 

[C.S. Murphy]

I agree some Reining in should be done but as usual you and I are in complete dissagreement.The question of course is who gets reined in. Too bad we don't have a source of truth that we can all hold to that orders our actions. To the ladies who have made some strong statements in these last posts, I praise God for you, keep it up. And to Matt, brother I think I liked post #2 better than #1.
Murph

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua Villines:

EXACTLY!!!

Pardon my shouting, but that's why these discussions are so important. Every day people pitch their faith because they think it is inextricably linked to a fundamentalist understanding of Christianity. It almost happened to me as well (in my adolescence).

Joshua[/QUOTE]

A lot of us here think it did happen.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Too bad we don't have a source of truth that we can all hold to that orders our actions.

The whole thing about loving your brother in Christ should apply here. Or if you like some who feel they know who is a true Christian or not, then the commands to love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you should do the trick.

Of course, there's that top ten command about telling the truth that all of us need to hold to -- that includes not jumping to conclusions about what someone else believes and then condemning them on the basis of our imaginations....

But that would be silly for people who "believe the Bible" so much.

Carry on.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rev. Joshua Villines:
[EXACTLY!!!

Pardon my shouting, but that's why these discussions are so important. Every day people pitch their faith because they think it is inextricably linked to a fundamentalist understanding of Christianity. It almost happened to me as well (in my adolescence).

Joshua

A lot of us here think it did happen.</font>[/QUOTE]Some people pitch their faith because they've gotten tired of getting unjustly judged all the time and feel that if God's alleged representatives do that, then there's no room for them in God's Kingdom.

Judging and condemnation is serious business.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:

Undoubtably someone will point to Jesus and say that Jesus called some of his critics the sons of the devil, but I think that Jesus had more insight than all of us put together and he also had the advantage of personally interacting with them -- not just reading posts on the internet.

Your attacks on post-it only reveal the weakness of your own arguments and the condition of your heart.[/QB]

BB I think you proved your own point by trying to judge the condition of my heart. Above you mentioned that Jesus had more insight than we did but then you apparently rise to his level of insight by pointing out my weakness. We should all play this cleaner but we don't, shame on us all.
Murph

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I consider the Bible serious business. Do I doubt people's faith here ? Yes I do. I doubt my own sometimes. But when I see a professed Christian telling me the bible doesn't say what it so plainly says, I have to ask, what are their motives ? It's always the same people here who cast doubt on God's word, it's always the same people who post scripture after scripture in rebuttal, and it's always the same people jeering the ones who do take a stand.

For instance when I post an opposing viewpoint, from a conservative stance, I can expect a retort from you, BB.

Our job is to stand for the truth. I'm glad we have articulate folks here whob do take a stand. Me, I'm not articulate. But I know blasphemy when I see it. And I will bark when I see it here, and bring attention to it, so that others can bark, also.

And about this "Christian love" you keep throwing in my face. This is a ministry. I guarantee you that if Post-it, or Joshua came to most our churches and started spouting off their liberal rhetoric, they would be expelled, with extreme prejudice.

 

[post-it]

This doubting of faith in others that has now come up reminds me of something that I have always found fascinating but only because Jesus does the same for us.

I saw a mother that so loved her son that she would be at the trial each day in front of the world. She shed tears and claimed truthfully that she loved him and while she also admitted that he murdered 2 little children in cold blood, she said she would continue to love and support him, and she did.

In each community most of us have seen this love. And how we can claim someone is sincere or not based on some assumptions is just not a valid claim. It doesn't make sense that a woman should love and support a child killer, yet it is true.

The liberal understanding makes about as much sense as this mothers love. It seems to contradict, yet is really isn't. You just haven't reach a time in your life yet when you have to face facts which can't be answered following a conservatives approach. And it may never happen to you and most likely won't. But still that doesn't change the fact that you see the world one way in Christ and we see it in another way in Christ.

[ August 19, 2002, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[post-it]

I have to add one more thing here. I think most liberal were at one time a conservative; I know I was. Further, I think that most conservatives were never liberals. Why do you think that more conservatives become liberal rather than the other way around?

I think it is because once you step onto this side of viewing the Bible, it makes more sense. But of course it had to stop making sense at some point as a conservative. So if you haven't gotten there yet, you still could. At that point you will either become a liberal or you will stop believing altogether. Now, which would you rather have if you knew this would happen to you next year when scripture suddenly doesn't make sense in some areas. You will most likely remember that people like us liberals on the BB have been telling you this could happen and there is still hope so don't lose your faith, expand your mind and keep your salvation. Answers are not easy, and the Bible is more complicated than most people think. It’s been dumbed down by the Catholic Church and parts of it changed by certain doctrines that can’t be supported as God’s truth.

Others just grew up in a liberal environment. I didn't but I'm sure other liberals have and all the above wouldn't apply to them but it will apply to anyone that finally hits the wall I referred to.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I was pretty liberal, before I was saved. I grew up in a pretty liberal era, disco, punk rock, Jimmy Carter, Mary Tyler Moore. I even voted for Mondale. I mean, I am from Massachusetts.

 

[Naomi]

Originally posted by post-it:

In each community most of us have seen this love. And how we can claim someone is sincere or not based on some assumptions is just not a valid claim. It doesn't make sense that a woman should love and support a child killer, yet it is true.

Post-it,
This does make sense. If one of my own children were convicted of a crime like this, I would still love them. My love for them would always remain the same. Unconditionally. Yet, I would stand by the Judges ruling if he or she were given life in prison.
On the other hand, what if I were the murdered childs mother, and the killer was let off with a mere slap on the hand? What if the Judge said that he was a loving kind man, who felt compassion for the killer, and out of kindess he was going to let the killer go free. The entire town would be in an uproar.
See, people know that if we break the law, there is a consequence. I know this as well because I just paid a huge fine for a speeding ticket . I had full knowledge of the speed limit, yet I chose to break the law, so I had to pay the cost of the fine.
If we are truly loving and merciful, we will tell people the truth, and warn them of what is to come. Jesus did this throughout His ministry here on earth. Just as the disciple did after.
God is a God of love, but He is also Just. He must punish sin. He came to earth once and took on the form of a man, and told us what we must do to be saved, and He showed us how to live. He then shed His blood on the cross so our sins could be forgiven. He made a way where there was no way. Our job....to believe, to take Him at His word. To totally place our trust in Him. He showed us the epitomy of true love and true mercy. He gave His life, His blood. We can now be reconciled to God, through the Blood of Jesus, and have the Holy Spirit dwell within us. So what are we saved from? The wrath that is coming to all who have rejected Him. If we have knowledge of this, we should love people enough to tell them the truth. Only with the motives of real love and mercy.
That mother will love her child forever. It is very difficult to watch her child pay for the consequences of his crime.
The other family of the victim must also go on with life. Yet, they can be assured that the person who killed their child is charged and convicted for his crime.
Both families have lost out.
It would have been better for the one who committed this crime to have been told of the consequences of their actions, instead of just being patted on the shoulder and bailed out everytime they were in trouble with the law. For this message of (love) did not pay off in the end. We do not have to go the other extreme and beat the child into submission, but there is a middle ground! Jesus showed it. It is all in the gospels. He is the Father who loves His children. He also must discipline, and He also must Judge and punish sin.

Liberal or Conservative? Jesus demonstrated both.
He was very liberal in the way He was toward the Pharisee's and Saducee's when they came around and was more concerned with the rules and the methods of what was happeneing then with the people it was happening to. (Healing on the sabbath)
Yet, He was conservative in the way He approached them with the threat of damnation for cleaning the outside of the cup while the inside was still dirty.
He also seemed liberal when He allowed a (sinful woman) to come into the home of a very religious leader, and wash His feet!
IMO, Jesus was both Liberal and Conservative, yet He never, ever watered down the message

.
God Bless,
Naomi

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:
I was pretty liberal, before I was saved. I grew up in a pretty liberal era, disco, punk rock, Jimmy Carter, Mary Tyler Moore. I even voted for Mondale. I mean, I am from Massachusetts.

I think you are still confused about what a liberal is in regard to our discussion here. You were not a Baptist liberal, you were a liberal, politically speaking. I'm a republican and a conservative in my political views, but I'm liberal in my Baptist views. The two have nothing to do with each other.

[ August 19, 2002, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I almost immediately became a conservative upon being saved. I believe they have a lot to do with each other. Your views on abortion and homosexuality tell me you are not a conservative republican.

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by SheEagle911:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
quote: SheEagle911

The virgin birth is one of the cornerstones of your salvation and mine, not just some "radical" Baptist doctrine, easily dismissed, as you would have us believe.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post-it:

No, that is incorrect, salvation through the risen Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of salvation, not a story about his past history in which no requirement in the belief of a virgin birth was placed as a prerequisite of being saved.

You are half correct, post-it.

Salvation through the Risen Jesus Christ is one of the pillars of our Salvation. The other pillar upon which our Salvation rests is the Virgin Birth. Take either of those two away, and there is no Salvation.

I repeat, the virgin birth is one of the cornerstones (or pillars) of yours & my salvation.

Here's why...without the virgin birth, Jesus Christ would have been born of sin, and thus could have not presented as the sacrifice for sin before a Holy & Righteous God.

Here's why.

Rom.5
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All have sinned. Starting with Adam, sin has passed on through the race of mankind, from Adam, through the man & his seed. Death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.

The sin offering, atonement for sin had to be spotless. (male without blemish)

Lev. 1

[3] If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
[4] And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Jesus Christ could not have fit the requirement as my sin offering if he had been born of Adam's seed, which was cursed. He could only have been my (and your) substitution if he was spotless, without sin. Thus, the Holy Spirit came upon the virgin. Through one man, Adam, sin entered the human race. Through one Man, Jesus, the Son of God, redeemed the human race.

I Peter 1:[18] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[20] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
[21] Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Without the Virgin Birth Jesus Christ would have been born from the seed of sin, Adam. He would not have qualified before a Righteous & Holy God to be the spotless Lamb, taking all sin onto Himself, as my Substitute for Sin. He would have been merely a mortal man, a prophet, not the Son of God.

You state: "salvation through the risen Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of salvation."

Lazarus died & Jesus raised him from the dead. But Lazarus can't give me salvation. He was not the spotless sacrifical Lamb, for he was born through the seed of mankind.

So now you have the whole truth.

Salvation through the Risen Jesus Christ is one of the pillars of our Salvation. The other pillar upon which our Salvation rests is the Virgin Birth. Take either of those two away, and there is no Salvation.

I am telling you the truth in love. Cherish the virgin birth.</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[TomMann]

I believe we are directed to try every spirit to see if it is of God. And IMHO that means searching the scripture to see if it is so.

It seems some believe in trying God to see if He agrees with their spirit. This seems to lead to either neglecting or denying the truth of scripture.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
KJV

And the LORD (Jesus) is the Word of God come in the flesh. I think that is what John was trying to tell us.

So here is my view......

Prov 3:5 Trust in the WORD OF GOD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
KJV

Yes, (Name ommited).... Yes, (Name ommited)... I believe that in your liberal views you have a message about Jesus that the world will more readily recieve. The mission, however, is not to court the world, but to bring His sheep (the ones His Father gave him) out of the world. Did you know that His sheep hear His voice?

The scripture that comes to mind when it is mentioned..... about conservatives becoming liberal. And I don't mean having liberal thoughts or leanings, I mean jumping the fence which some appear to have done.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
KJV