Virgin of Zapopan

[dianetavegia]

I would probably shy away from using a PBS documentary in proving the CC practices idolatry as much as I would Jack Chick. It's pretty hard to take it seriously.

Uh... Brother Adam, they showed people lined up for blocks and followed them inside. With my own eyes I saw them hand over their money to the priest. With my own eyes I saw them crawl under that table holding the coffin... kiss the coffin 3 times and cross themselves. I think I can take it that these people were expecting something from this dead dude. Why would I not believe what I saw? You're leaning toward believeing some doll has healing powers!

Dolls, idols, graven images do not heal. They are NOT God. Just as those prayer hankies and other gimmicks mailed out by t.v. evangelist don't heal, neither does Benny Hinn or this silly idol.

Diane

 

[Brother Adam]

Diane,

Computer technology does increadible things to stories.

Recently the company that I work for issued a very classified document to its employees. One of the employees leaked it to the press. The press had a field day with it, and what ended up coming out on the news broadcast was so far from the truth it's not even funny, especially because I work for a Christian company.

Two other things though- please take into account my previous post and think about what I said there.

The other- Please, Please, do not assume that what you saw on PBS should be taken for gospel truth. I ask the same of Catholics when watching Binny Hinn and his representation of our faith. Research more about what was taking place, talk to Catholics such as Carson Weber who can explain many things that seem utterly foreign to us.

Perhaps what was taking place is idolatry, and the priest needs to lose his ordination. Perhaps it isn't.

It bothers me when people right off what they see for something it may not be at first glance.

 

[dianetavegia]

Adam, there was no computer technology involved. This was a simple documentary on customs or some such thing. This was NOT a documentary on the Catholic church or idols. It was about a country and travel within a country.


I'm 52. I'm not dumb enough to fall for just anything. As a Baptist, you should know enough scritpure to know that graven images, idol worship, etc. is a sin. Praying to or expecting miracles from some 'doll' is just that.

Diane

 

[Brother Adam]

*sigh*

Just like the woman who touched Jesus' cloak was practicing idolatry right?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
Pulling at straws are we?

A woman touched Jesus' cloak in faith. In faith she was healed for only touching his cloak.

She was healed by her faith in the healing power of Jesus, not his cloak. She had heard testimony that Jesus heals, and she had faith that she would be healed if she could get close enough to him to merely touch the hem of his garment. Jesus is the "real thing" not a statue or graven image of the real thing.

 

[GraceSaves]

Thank you for settling this issue, Yelsew.

Prove to me that these people (the true Catholics in the group, at least) believe that they are being healed by the doll and not God. Untill you prove that, you are operating on speculation.

 

[Brother Adam]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Adam:
Pulling at straws are we?

A woman touched Jesus' cloak in faith. In faith she was healed for only touching his cloak.

She was healed by her faith in the healing power of Jesus, not his cloak. She had heard testimony that Jesus heals, and she had faith that she would be healed if she could get close enough to him to merely touch the hem of his garment. Jesus is the "real thing" not a statue or graven image of the real thing. </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly, you just repeated what I said, only you said it a little better.

 

[CatholicConvert]

2Ki 13:21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

What the Protestant mindset does not understand is the fact that the body is the temple of the Living God. As such, can you PROVE that upon death, the Holy Spirit LEAVES THAT BODY?

If you try to say that the Holy Spirit does, then WHY? The body is going to be resurrected on the Last Day. Why shouldn't the body, and all its effects which touched it, continue to be a source of the Holy Spirit's power.

You complain that we worship human beings, but if the person is not present, then it must be the Holy Spirit still dwelling in that body Who does any miracles attributed to the person. Perhaps we are not clear enough about that.

God set a precedent in the Old Covenant. Is there some reason that this could not continue in the New Covenant. May I have that reason clearly and unambiguously from the Bible?

Thank you.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Catholic Convert,

I as a Protestant grew up in a denomination who emphasized to us that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. [I Cor. 6:19] This was one of the reasons they said there could be no immorality, smoking, or drinking, because these things would defile the temple and the spirit of the Christian. Please, don't misunderstand me. Drinking wine in moderation is not wrong but it could lead to an excess and then it would displease the Lord.

Secondly you said, 'You complain that we worship human beings, but if the person is not
present . . .'

Ray--We agree on this point. When a person dies he or she is dead.

Thirdly you said, ' . . . then it must be the Holy Spirit still dwelling in that body Who does
any miracles attributed to the person. Perhaps we are not clear enough about that.

Ray--Dead bodies and spirits of those bodies do not do miracles. This is highly speculative and fanciful in your mind and people who are inclined to think like you. When a person dies the soul and spirit returns to God Who gave it to that person. Therefore, the Holy Spirit withdraws from the Christian life after the death of said person.

If miracles take place, and they do, it is God who hears the prayers of His people [I Timothy 2:5] and the Lord does all of the healing. [James 5:14-16] Jesus has no errand boys who do miracles on our behalf. God is Almighty and capable of ministering all by Himself. Angels, however, do protect God's people and bring providence into our lives. [Psalm 34:7] Glorified saints in Heaven continually worship the Lord who is worthy of all praise; He alone is the One who sits on the throne.

 

[dianetavegia]

Brother Adam Said:

*sigh* Just like the woman who touched Jesus' cloak was practicing idolatry right?

Brother Adam, I am very concerned for you. You say you are a Baptist and yet don't understand that this woman's great belief in Jesus caused her healing at just the touch of his garment! May I please suggest you make an appointment and speak with your pastor? I think he may be able to share some things with you.

Believing that Jesus, our living, breathing savior, could heal at just a word, just a touch, a command or even by our faith is much different that any denomination believing that a prayer cloth, doll, dead priest or 'saint' can heal. Always, our faith MUST be in God our heavenly Father and not some graven image! Jesus is NOT a graven image but a living savior!

Diane

 

[Brother Adam]

"Brother Adam, I am very concerned for you. You say you are a Baptist and yet don't understand that this woman's great belief in Jesus caused her healing at just the touch of his garment!"

On the other hand, you misunderstand. Yes, I do understand that by faith she was healed by touching his garment. She didn't simply stay away and say a prayer to God- but she took action! Her faith was so great and yet her humility so powerful all she desired to do was touch a piece of Christs clothing. It confuses me as to how Christians today say that this can no longer happen. That Christ will not work through our meger actions to draw closer to Him, and answer our prayer to him in faith.

I believe it is sinful for you to cast judgement that what you saw on a PBS documentary was pagan idolatry. You don't have a clue where any of those peoples hearts were, and for all anyone knows those making the documentary twisted facts and played around with camara shots. For all we know the people of this culture may have been giving their tithe and working out their faith as best as they know how.

"May I please suggest you make an appointment and speak with your pastor? I think he may be able to share some things with you."

I share with him often. He's a great guy. I'm actually hoping to do an intern with him and our other pastor soon. He doesn't share the same concerns you do, but then again he doesn't cast judgements about anyone or anything with becoming as fully aquainted with the facts as possible.

"Believing that Jesus, our living, breathing savior, could heal at just a word, just a touch, a command or even by our faith is much different that any denomination believing that a prayer cloth, doll, dead priest or 'saint' can heal."

Of course. But what is to say that someone couldn't have a great faith in Christ and touch a hold a prayer cloth in faith? Do you have a family alter that you and your family pray at? Many Baptists do. Who's to say you are pagans for worshipping an alter. I'd dare bet you're actually worshipping God.

"Always, our faith MUST be in God our heavenly Father and not some graven image! Jesus is NOT a graven image but a living savior!"

Absolutely.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Dead bodies and spirits of those bodies do not do miracles. This is highly speculative and fanciful in your mind and people who are inclined to think like you. When a person dies the soul and spirit returns to God Who gave it to that person. Therefore, the Holy Spirit withdraws from the Christian life after the death of said person.

You are like the atheist, who, when confronted with a miracle which was so clear and obvious (a healing of a severely deformed woman which took place at Lourdes) denied it and cried out "Take her away. She is ugly" Yet Christ had healed her through the vehicle of the water of Lourdes and she was no longer ugly. What was ugly to this man was the confrontation with that which would destroy his faith in atheism and make him believe. ANYTHING was preferable to that.

In like manner, your post leaves me incredulous. I gave you a verse of Scripture which shows quite clearly that the Lord brought back to life one who was dead by the mere coming into contact with the bones of the dead prophet.

Your response, and that of Diane below, continues to reinforce to me that Protestantism is but one very small step away from Gnosticism. You are TERRIFIED to think that God could do anything using such physical things as wine, water, oil, and the relics of the saints. Such a despizing of the physical, of God's using matter, smacks of the Gnostic heresy which says "only that which is spirit really matters. All else is illusion and EVIL."

Believing that Jesus, our living,breathing savior, could heal at just a word, just a touch, a command or even by our faith is much different that any denomination believing that a prayer cloth, doll, dead priest or 'saint' can heal. Always, our faith MUST be in God our heavenly Father and not some graven image! Jesus is NOT a graven image but a living savior!

Diane, the dead body and those who tossed it into the grave of the prophet, did NOT have faith. Yet the power of the Holy Spirit raised this man from the dead. You cannot come into contact with the One Who is the Spirit of Life without being transformed. Those who have more of the Holy Spirit upon them have more to give. That was why the people in acts even tried to have St. Peter's shadow fall upon them. They knew that he was endowed in a very special way, and they wanted some of that blessing of coming into contact with the Spirit of God through St. Peter.

Again, your fear of the physical is sad. God uses many means to bestow His grace, and neither you nor I can set the rules nor stay His hand.

 

[Briguy]

Maybe I am off the point here but that has never stopped me from posting before so here it goes

In the early church things were different. There was a gift of Miracles and a gift of Healing. These gifts were given to the apostles and others of the Holy Spirits choosing. The miraculous authenticated the message that was being preached because nothing NT wise was written yet. Peter healed and then preached, for example. Spiritual gifts are given to the user and then it is up to the user to decide when to use the gift. That is why it is called a gift. The spiritual gift is given away by God and contains God's power. So Peter could heal when ever he wanted. The gift was in him. It could just be that the "power" in people like Peter and Paul was so great that their shadow (Peter) or sweat (Paul) could actually heal. Don't discount that as "nuts" without thinking it through. Either way, understand that in the early church things were different. People were healed by people with the gift of healing or God healed as the result of the prayer of the faithful. Keep in mind that spiritual gifts are given to edify corporately and not individually and that is why Paul did not heal himself, which he could have done. He rather asked God, and God said no and Paul accepted that. Had Paul healed himself he would have perverted the gift. When thinking of healing miracles keep those things in mind. Only God does miracles now, the gift of miracles(mostly related to raising the dead) and healing are no longer given out as the Bible authenticates itself now.

Man, I hope I touched on something that pertained to the subject at hand.

Satan can perform miracles as well, so careful as she goes when dealing with the supernatural.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Ray Berrian]

Catholic Convert,

There are four lessons at least to be learned from Luke 16:22-31. Dr. Charles C. Ryrie, Ph.D. from the University of Edinburgh has said,

'Clearly this account teaches some important facts about death and Hell: (a) there is a conscious existence after death; (b) Hell is a real place of torment; (c) ther is no second chance after death; and (d) the dead cannot communicate with the living.'

It is not the ministry of dead saints to receive prayers or to heal the sick from the other side. True Christians are instrumental in healing the sick according to James 5:14-16. I have asked living Catholics and other Christians to pray for me or other people, but never have I called on the dead to heal me because this passage says that only the Lord will raise up the sick from their beds.

Again, in the words of the theologian, he said, 'The dead cannot communicate with the living.'

The Lord God has a word for Roman Catholic believers. 'No one from eternity side of things is in contact with this world and the living. Jesus, would say, . . . They have the living, earthly, prophets; let them hear them.' [Luke 16:29]

And please don't try the idea that this is a parable. A true parable does not use proper names like Abraham, Moses and Lazarus.

We non-Catholics for the most part believe that the sick should ask the elders of the church to pray for them, anointing them with oil in the Name of Jesus. No other alleged, saints or real dead saints need to apply for work. At least at the time of the writing of St. James Jesus was not backed up with unanswered prayers or people waiting to be healed. We are in capable hands when we pray to our Lord.

In I Peter 5:7 the Apostle Peter said that Christian should cast all of their cares and concerns on Jesus, because He cares for us. Do you agree? We find not hint of Jesus saying, "If I have a problem healing or meeting the needs of all the people, please, defer to my elevated saints or even unnamed saints who have gone on before you."

I have seen people healed because of Jesus miracle authority and power. He uses chosen men and perhaps women to minister prayer for the sick, but only Jesus can heal or forgive sins.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Ray,

Those Christians in heaven presently are more alive than you or I, and the Book of Revelation tells us that they are praying for us right now.

"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev 5:8).

Let's see here.. we have men in heaven who are offering the prayers of the saints before the throne of Jesus in heaven. It looks to me like your idea of "dead saints being unable to pray for us" is antithetical to the picture Revelation paints.

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed, the Bible refers to the saints that have died as "The Dead in Christ" 1Thess 4.

In John 11 Christ argues "Lazarus IS asleep" and finally "Our FRIEND Lazarus is DEAD".

These are the "terms" the Bible uses to describe those that the RCC will tell you "are MORE ALIVE" than you or I.

So choose who you will believe and then put your faith in that source.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Luke 11 the mariolotry of mariology is condemned as follows.

Luke 11


27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."
28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."


That woman was simply offering the smallest observation in mariology and concluding that we ought to bless Mary as being highly privileged, as one to be honored as the Mother of God – one who is highly favored by God Himself – not as a replacement for Christ – but as his biological mother – mother of God - co-redemptrix, Royal Queen of heaven among humanity – highly blessed.

(But you may argue these appellations go far beyond the simply statement of blessing of this woman in the crowd – and you would be right).

Christ responds in direct contradiction “On the Contrary”! Directly refuting the offer of mariolotry every so slight as it is.

Christ points out that those who follow and obey His Word are blessed – highly favored – INSTEAD.

He could easily have said “In addition to the high honor of Mary as Mother of God and queen of Heaven – those ALSO are blessed who simply HEAR and Obey My word”.

But instead – Christ presents it as “contradicting” the mariolotry of EVEN such a simply statement of Mariology.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

Those who are teaching you scholarship should remind you not to ignore your opponents argumentation altogether. At least make an attempt to prove me wrong. In case you forgot where the passage is located it can be found in Luke 16:19-31. Verse thirty-one reminds us that Jesus said to listen to the physically alive men of God {Moses & the prophets} and not those whose bones have disintegrated into dust.

Your passage from Revelation 5:8 indicates that the elders and the living creatures {four beasts} where before the throne of Christ in worship and adoration. The passage indicates that the ' . . . golden vials full of odors, were the prayers of the saints' who were living on the earth. The Greek scholar Dr. A.T. Robertson says, 'A harp (kitharan) is the old word, the traditional instrument {lyre or Zithern} for psalmody (Psalm 33:2; 98:5) Golden bowls (phialaschrusas). Broad shallow saucers, old word, in N.T. only in Rev. 5:8; 15:7; 16:1-4, 8, 10, 12, 17; 17:1; 21:9. Of incense (thumiamaton). Old word from thumiao, to burn incense (Luke 1:19), as in Luke 1:10. Which are (hai eisin). "Which (these bowls of incense) symbolize the prayers of the saints" as in Luke 1:10.' Dr. Robertson, "Word Pictures In The New Testament" Vol. VI, p. 335. This expression was Almighty God's way of saying that the prayers of the saints had reached Heaven and God had received those petitions and human concerns from down on the earth. Prayers are immaterial; you don't really think that those prayers could be placed in a bowl or seen in a saucer, do you? Prayers are a spiritual phenomenon and are offered to one Mediator. [I Timothy 2:5]
Is there one iota of evidence in I Peter 5:7 that prayer concerns were made to Mary or any glorified saints such as Padre Pio or the other myriad of saints that the Roman Catholic Church suggests? These really alive saints, as you suggested, are worshipping the Lamb of God and are not sub-contracting the work load on behalf of Jesus Christ. If our Lord cannot handle everyone's prayers offered from this earth, maybe we are not worshipping the true and correct God.

 

[Briguy]

Carson, I have seen you post that verse about the prayers of the saints before. Is that the only verse in all of scripture that supports your claim?

Is it good to take a book like Revelations, which is almost poetic in its launguage, and use it as a proof of a belief? Shouldn't there be additional scripture to turn to? (maybe there is, I guess that is why I am asking)

Rev. 3:20 says Behold, I stand at the door and knock

Obviously figurative and not proof that Jesus stands behind a "real" door.


HEY!! No comments to my post above? I was really expecting to have to defend myself today. No comments must mean that no one could find any fault in my post Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder.

In Jesus, lover of my soul,
Brian

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Brian,

You asked, "Is that the only verse in all of scripture that supports your claim?"

No, it is not. However, it is the most explicit exposition, in Scripture, of saints in heaven offering the prayers of saints on earth before the throne of the Lamb, and so it is the best "proof text" I have to give. It's simple, straightforward, and explicit.

You wrote, "Is it good to take a book like Revelations, which is almost poetic in its launguage, and use it as a proof of a belief?"

Of course it is. Irregardless of the particular genre of Scripture, St. Paul tells us in 2 Tim 3:16, "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

St. John, in his Apocalypsis, shows us the Heavenly liturgy. This is why he says that he was taken up "on the Lord's Day". The first Christians referred to Sunday as "the Lord's Day" and it was on that day that they gathered and celebrated the liturgy of the Word and the liturgy of the Eucharist. The entire book of Revelation is liturgical from start to finish, and John's vision reveals the heavenly worship in which we partake in when we partake in the earthly liturgy.

John shows us that Saints in Heaven offer the prayers of the saints on Earth before the throne of the Lamb. You can attempt to demolish the article "the communion of the saints" from the Early Church creeds by interpreting this verse in such a way that it no longer speaks for itself. But, I'm not you. I'm a member of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, and I hold to the faith that comes to us from the apostles, the faith that comes from Scripture interpreted rightly, the faith guarded by the martyrs, and the faith as practiced in the Christian Liturgy from the time the Apostles celebrated the Passover Seder meal with our Lord in the Upper Room.

The first heretics to have a problem with the article of the creeds concerning the communion of the saints came along only 5 centuries ago. For 15 centuries, we don't have a Christian arguing against asking St. so-and-so in Heaven to pray for us. For a Lord that promised the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against His Church, He did a pretty poor job for a good millenium and a half.