Virgin of Zapopan

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Also, no challanges yet to my post on miracles.

In Christ,
Brian

Brian,

Do you know that the Church is continuing to document miracles to this day? Every person canonized a saint has to have a number of documented miracles attributed to them; this is part of the evidence the Church uses in its discernment. I'm no expert in this field, but Google would no doubt be happy to provide details.

 

[Briguy]

Hi Carson, Hope you are enjoying your summer. Hitting the books again must be just around the corner, I bet.

I am a little foggy on what you wanted to prove by Romans 6:22 but here is the verse and others from the KJV.

"18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
[19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
[20] For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
[21] What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[22] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."


There are several points here but I will only make two.First, Baptism is not mentioned at this point as the way we are cleaned and made righteous. Second there is an element of OSAS in these verses. Words like "were" (vs. 20) and "made" (vs.22) seem to indicate a transformation that has happened to those who fit that category.

Carson, Your post seemed to say that we are saved by actual baptism when you really don't mean that. We have discussed plenty the idea of intention, etc... which you believe counts as baptism even though no ceremony has taken place. Also, other catholics have said they believe I am saved because I won't be held to a Catholic standard because of my limited knowledge. So the point is I know that jesus has washed me clean, though i have not been believer Baptized as of yet. My Lutheran infant Baptism doesn't play any role in who i am in Christ today. "I am clean, not because of water poured on my head but because of blood that was shed" (Hey, I'm a poet)

In Christ,
Brian

 

[thessalonian]

"You imply that touching rosary beads will increase population in heaven. What
kind of bible are you reading anyhow? I thought it was "Whosoever believes in
me shall never die"........where do you see toys in that ?"

Singer, we explain and explain and yet you remain ignorant. I don't think your a stupid human being. The Rosary is about the Gospel. It is about contemplating the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Gospel is what saves. As for God saving without leaders and teachers it is quite apparent from even a child's reading of Jer 3:15 that that is not what he intended to do. But you will continue to trust in your own understanding(prov 3:15).

Blessings.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Brian,

Hope you are enjoying your summer.

Thanks, I am bro. It's good to be home for a month to enjoy the Texas heat; I'm taking a distance learning course from the University entitled "Christian Spirituality" by Dr. Mark Miravalle of voxpopuli.org - it's absolutely amazing; I'm blown out the water.

Hitting the books again must be just around the corner, I bet.

Well, yes and no. I've already read 17 this summer, and I'm sure many more are to be devoured this fall.

I am a little foggy on what you wanted to prove by Romans 6:22

Oh, I was showing that the end of sanctification is eternal life.

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life." (Rom 6:22)

Our sanctity isn't an option; it's necessary, and whether we get sanctified here or in Purgatory, if we're headed for Heaven, we've gotta get purified in the soul.

Baptism is not mentioned at this point as the way we are cleaned and made righteous.

You're right. It was mentioned several verses back at the beginning of the chapter. If you read Romans as a whole, Paul puts baptism right where it belongs.

Chapter 2 - absolute need for works of righteousness
Chapter 3 - Christ is the only way to do Ch. 2
Chapter 4 - the Mosaic law can't give us this power
Chapter 5 - all of mankind is in Adam & needs Christ
Chapter 6 - we get out of Adam & into Christ through baptism
Chapter 7 - after baptism, concupiscence remains
Chapter 8 - redemptive suffering is the solution to consupiscence

And then in 9-11, Paul deals with the unbelief & hardness of the Judaizers, his chief opponents by using some seriously strategic texts from the Old Testament.

Words like "were" (vs. 20) and "made" (vs.22) seem to indicate a transformation that has happened to those who fit that category.

Absolutely; it's Catholic dogma that baptism transforms us. This is why we call the newly baptized neophytes; this translates to "those with a new nature".

Carson, Your post seemed to say that we are saved by actual baptism when you really don't mean that.

Of course I do.

"Eight persons were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now." (1 Peter 3:20f)

I won't be held to a Catholic standard because of my limited knowledge.

Yeah, right!

Bro, you know more about the necessity of baptism for salvation and its Biblical basis than most Catholics after having dialogued with Catholics for so long on this board. If you have "limited knowledge", well, I'm Pokemon.

Nice to meet you.

 

[Briguy]

Hi Carson, Thanks for that post. Sometimes when we discuss things I feel like you are a machine, a Catholic Machine at at that

This last post of yours was different. It was more down to earth, more "you". I agree with some of what you say but being "clean in God's eyes is different from a long santification process. I really believe in a logical sense that there is "power" in the blood of Jesus (like the old song says). God's power is perfect and because God's perfect His Sons's blood cannot to a partial job. The blood is not "Tide" which only cleans soiled clothes part way. The blood is more like an awesome bleach that makes everything it cleans sparkling white and without a spot of dirtiness. That is why Heaven rejoices, because Heaven sees the perfect "clean". Santification is our maturing here on earth. We become more Holy as we mature, Paul makes this clear with saying we are babies when we first come to Christ. The clean and perfect white in terms of the ticket to Heaven is instant. The holiness as seen by those on earth is a process. Thanks again for your attitude in your last post. It is great to hear the Carson behind the "machine" (then again 17 books this summer??? maybe you are just a machine

)

Take care my friend and may God bless you as you study His word and grow in Grace.

In Christian love,
Brian

 

[Singer]

(Briguy)

Carson, Your post seemed to say that we are saved by actual baptism when you really
don't mean that.

(Carson)
Of course I do.

"Eight persons were saved through water. This prefigured baptism,
which saves you now." (1 Peter 3:20f)

(Singer)

Let's test the powers of baptism (without intent) and mandatorily water
down all the inmates in our prisons, water bomb Iraq and Korea and get
this thing over with fast. (Or else let's accept that baptism does NOT SAVE !!)

 

[Singer]

1Peter Ch. 3 is an exhortation to godliness and not a proving ground of
the powers of baptism.

Notice throughout the chapter the terms like:

3. let it not be an outward adorning
4. let it be the hidden man of the heart
8. be ye all of one mind
15. sanctify the Lord in your hearts
21. the like figure (comparing to above text) KJV does not say "This
prefigured baptism now saves". It says "the like figure" (comparison to the
Lord's grace). After the words of "whereunto even baptism doth also now
save us, it says in parenthesis (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
but the answer of a good conscience toward God.)

*** Washing will not cleanse a heart.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I will give you my evaluation of Romans chapter six and then what another theologian has to say.

First, if you believe that Romans 6:1-5 is speaking about water baptism then verse six does not make sense in this context because mere water would not insure that ' . . . our old nature would be crucified with Him and that the body of sin might be destroyed.' Water does not have this magical power, but baptism into the Spirit does have redemptive value when we find Christ as Savior. Water does not expunge the continuing affect of the carnal nature and even with the baptism into the Jesus Christ, at salvation, the Spirit does not fully destroy the effects of the Adamic nature. [I Thess. 5:23] This verse reminds us that our complete sanctification will take place when He comes for us. Only God the Spirit can affect our human spirit and soul. If the ritual or ordinance of water baptism affects regeneration, then the activity and ministry of the Spirit is not needed. You will not find one drop of water in the Romans chapter six passage.

Now the explanation of Rev. Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer. ' . . . if this passage is accepted as a directing in the matter of ritual, or water, baptism, as some have considered it, the vital truth respecting Christ's death as a judgment of the sin nature is dismissed, since the passage could not represent both ideas; and if the passage is a directing in the matter of ritual baptism, the one central truth which provides the ground of a possible freedom from the "old man" is sacrificed. The most ardent contender for the claim that ritual baptism is a representation of the death of Christ would hardly wish to relate that ordinance to sanctification or the victorious life by the Spirit, but would require that the ordinance be related to the salvation of the sinner, or Christ's death for sins. In this respect the passage---I Corinthians 15:1-4-is a more reasonable basis for the ordinance, for Romans 6:1-10 is without question a setting forth of the death of Christ as the ground of experimental sanctification and not of the salvation of the lost. No ritual baptism ever so joins a person to Christ as that he is made to share vitally and perfectly in all that Christ is and all that He has done, but this is precisely what the baptism of the Spirit accomplishes. Thus by being baptized into Christ by the Spirit, an actual participation in crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection is secured.' Vol. 3, p. 99.

Dr. Chafer continues: 'The New Creation, organic union between the resurrected Chrst and the believer, is based, according to the Scriptures, upon the substitutionary work of Christ in all its aspects and is accomplished by the regenerating work of the Spirit whereby Christ is begotten in the believer and by the baptizing work of the Sprit whereby the believer is placed in Christ. The words of Christ, "ye in Me, and I in you' [John 14:20], announce both aspectsof the Spirit's ministry in relation to the New Creation. [II Corinthians 5:17] Vol. II, p. 350.


I am saying that some denominations use Romans chapter six to prop up their belief of baptismal regeneration, meaning that a baby is regenerated as soon as a clergy or nurse splashes some water on the surprized newborn.

 

[Brother Adam]

Sounds like the Doc, like all of us, has his own interpertation and feelings on what scriptures mean.

 

[Singer]

Sounds like the Doc, like all of us, has his own interpertation and feelings on what
scriptures mean.

But the only interpretation that can be relied upon is that which was made by
some Catholic Bozo back in the first century.....!!!!

Ya, Right .

 

[GraceSaves]

Singer,

You just admitted that the Catholic Church dates back to the first century. That's a big step for you.

But, of course, calling someone a bozo is hardly Christlike.

 

[Carson Weber]

let's accept that baptism does NOT SAVE

Doh! What was I thinking??

"baptism doth also now save us" (1 Peter 3)

I actually thought Peter was serious that baptism saves but now I see! Peter didn't really mean what he said.. ahhhh... how enlightening.

 

[Ray Berrian]

All of the apostles but St. Luke were Jewish and adult men when they were called by Jesus to follow Him and the Apostle Paul was also an adult when he came into the faith, so we are safe to say that none of these men were baptized as infants into the Christian faith.

Secondly, Catholic people believe that one mortal sin will give you a ticket to Hell after being in Christ and regenerated, so infant baptism by Catholic parents or guardians provides very little eternal security for this baby once he becomes a man of the world.

Mere baptism, Peter is saying, ' . . . does not wash away the filth of the flesh either in a literal sense, as a bath for the body, or in a metaphorical sense of the filth of the soul. No ceremonies really affect the conscience (Hebrews 9:13f.). Peter here expressly denies baptismal remission of sin. But the interrogation of a good conscience toward God does . . . . this may be the sense here, that is, avowal of consecration to God after inquiry, having repented and turned to God and now making this public proclamation of that fact by means of baptism {the symbol of the previous inward change of heart}. Baptism is a symbol of the previous inward change of heart . . . . For baptism is a symbolic picture of the resurrection of Christ as well as of our own spiritual renewal (Romans 6:2-6) See I Peter 1:3 for regeneration made possible by the resurrection of Jesus.' Dr. A.T. Robertson {Greek scholar} "Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. 6, p. 120.

Our salvation is not only secured principally and originally by baptism but because of regeneration coming from the Lord God and only because of His resurrection from the dead and glorification at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. [I Peter 3:22] This is true because God spoke the truth in Acts 2:21 and Acts 16:31 without either the use of the words, baptism or water.

Dr. Matthew Henry in his commentary "Matthew Henry's Commentary" Vol. VI, p. 1026 says,

'He declares what he means by saving baptism; not the outward ceremony of washing with water, which, in itself, does no more than put away the filth of the flesh, but it is that baptism wherein there is a faithful answer or restipulation of a resolved good conscience, engaging to believe in, and be entirely devoted to, God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, renouncing at the same time the flesh, the world, and the devil. The baptismal covenant, made and kept, will certainly save us. Washing is the visible sign; this is the thing signified.'

Jesus wants us to trust Him and love Him with all of our heart, mind, body and soul.

 

[Carson Weber]

so infant baptism by Catholic parents or guardians provides very little eternal security for this baby once he becomes a man of the world.

That's precisely why, in the 4th c., the practice of infant baptism in the church declined (e.g., St. Augustine's baptism was put off by his mother,St. Monica, for this reason, and Constantine put off baptism until he was on his deathbed for this reason as well).

Peter here expressly denies baptismal remission of sin.

Doh! That's right!.. Peter actually said "Baptism, which corresponds to this, does not save you"! Our Bibles are just bad copies of the original, which really said this.

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
so infant baptism by Catholic parents or guardians provides very little eternal security for this baby once he becomes a man of the world.

That's precisely why, in the 4th c., the practice of infant baptism in the church declined (e.g., St. Augustine's baptism was put off by his mother,St. Monica, for this reason, and Constantine put off baptism until he was on his deathbed for this reason as well).

Baptism should never be delayed for fear that we may later commit a mortal sin. We always have access to our baptism through absolution. God freely forgives our sins for Christ's sake each time we come to Him in repentance and faith.

And here you see that Baptism, both in its power and signification, comprehends also the third Sacrament, which has been called repentance, as it is really nothing else than Baptism. For what else is repentance but an earnest attack upon the old man [that his lusts be restrained] and entering upon a new life? Therefore, if you live in repentance, you walk in Baptism, which not only signifies such a new life, but also produces, begins, and exercises it. For therein are given grace, the Spirit, and power to suppress the old man, so that the new man may come forth and become strong.

Therefore our Baptism abides forever; and even though some one should fall from it and sin, nevertheless we always have access thereto, that we may again subdue the old man. But we need not again be sprinkled with water; for though we were put under the water a hundred times, it would nevertheless be only one Baptism, although the operation and signification continue and remain. Repentance, therefore, is nothing else than a return and approach to Baptism, that we repeat and practise what we began before, but abandoned. Luther's Large Catechism

 

[Singer]

You just admitted that the Catholic Church dates back to the first century.
That's a big step for you.

Did I....? I'm sorry, I only meant to be sarcastic.

Gee I must be coming confused....maybe those prayers of Kathryn's ARE
working afterall........I'm showing all the symptoms of a Catholic !!

 

[Ray Berrian]

John Gilmore,

Your post was well said.

There is only one water baptism. Galatians 6:1 fits in here quite well.

 

[InTheNameOfLove]

Those people should be flocking to God within their hearts, not a mere statue being paraded in the streets.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Perhaps you don't know as much as you think you do regarding those who honor the Blessed Virgin. How do you know for sure what is in any man's heart?

You know, if I have a friend, and I really, really love that friend, that love spills over to his family. I am respectful and loving towards his wife and children, as well as his mother and father.

Our love for the Blessed Virgin is a token of our love for the Father who gave Her to us as our Mother and the New Eve of the New Covenant in Christ's Blood. It is a token of respect to our Lord Jesus that we respect His Mother also.

And since She IS the New Eve and therefore, new mother of all living (Eve means 'mother of all living'), then we are commanded to respect Her as our Mother in the Decalogue.

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
so infant baptism by Catholic parents or guardians provides very little eternal security for this baby once he becomes a man of the world.

That's precisely why, in the 4th c., the practice of infant baptism in the church declined (e.g., St. Augustine's baptism was put off by his mother,St. Monica, for this reason, and Constantine put off baptism until he was on his deathbed for this reason as well).

Peter here expressly denies baptismal remission of sin.

Doh! That's right!.. Peter actually said "Baptism, which corresponds to this, does not save you"! Our Bibles are just bad copies of the original, which really said this.

Be careful, Carson! Your comments are liable to accidentally start a dozen new denominations!