Virgin of Zapopan

[Carson Weber]

Hi Ray,

You wrote, "If our Lord cannot handle everyone's prayers offered from this earth, maybe we are not worshipping the true and correct God.

If our Lord cannot save his people without churches, altar calls, printing presses, preachers, teachers, apostles, and evangelists, then maybe we are not worshipping the true and correct God.

The Fatherhood of God is an attribute that calls for the participation of his children in his work; he calls us to participate in his work as his fellow workers.

"For we are God's fellow workers" (1 Cor 3:9).

What?!

Is God not powerful enough to do the job on his own! Paul, that's utter blasphemy!

 

[Singer]

[b'If our Lord cannot save his people without churches, altar calls, printing
presses, preachers, teachers, apostles, and evangelists, then maybe we
are not worshipping the true and correct God.[/b]

If our Lord cannot save his people without the influence of the RCC, infant
baptism, uninterrupted attendance at mass, eating flesh and drinking blood,
handling a rosary, kissing the ground the pope walks on and going into a
frenzy over dead bodies.......................


Unchurched Witness for Christ,
Singer

 

[Brother Adam]

Whatever the Lord may use to bring his children closer in their walk with Him, right Singer?

 

[tyndale1946]

Are we narrow minded or what?... Sure these are false beliefs but only by the grace of God go any of us!... We could have been born crawling on the ground kissing the rosary and the other various rituals and practices associated with that belief. Why should that bother me?... As long as they stay among themselves and don't bother me where is the big whoop?... Anybody like in your face you change or else? ... Why not?... If God wants to change them he will as only he can and I really don't worry about it!... Our biggest problem is not worrying about who is going to heaven and who isn't... In my belief as a Primitive Baptist Jesus the Lamb of God took care of that... We need to learn how to treat each other... We are all God's children or we wouldn't be here... Brother Glen

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
....saints in heaven offering the prayers of saints on earth before the throne of the Lamb...

WHERE does it say that Saints IN HEAVEN are offering the prayers of Saints ON EARTH before the throne???

What version are you reading that says that?

 

[LaRae]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Carson Weber:
....saints in heaven offering the prayers of saints on earth before the throne of the Lamb...

WHERE does it say that Saints IN HEAVEN are offering the prayers of Saints ON EARTH before the throne???

What version are you reading that says that? </font>[/QUOTE]Revelation 5:8....who else do you think the Saints are praying for? Who could they possibly be praying for...not those in heaven!


LaRae

 

[Briguy]

Hi Carson and Larae,

Hope you two are well. If you read Rev. 5:8 in context with the verses before it it seems to be saying something slightly different then what you want it to say. Couldn't the odours, which are the prayers of the saints, be symbolic of the prayers that went up from earth to heaven when the saints got saved? We are in the context here of the book of life, i.e salvation. The verse looks to be a verse that lets us know that our salvation is secured, if we are saints (believers) because our prayer(trust/belief) is stored in heaven. Stored in a jar or written in a book, The Lamb knows his children. (make sense?)

Now, in all honesty I wrote that without looking at any commentary or looking at the Greek words used so I will do a little research now and dig a little deeper. BTW, I looked carefully at the KJV when I came up with that last interpretation.

Hey!!! Still nobody challanging my post on healing and miracles----it must have been a winner, maybe even an ace (tennis terms)

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

Man, I hate this new edit thing. I goofed in my previous post. I said book of life but it is not the book of life it was a sealed book of judgement that nobody could open but the Lamb. I didn't read on so I don't remember what happens when that book is open. I still believe that the odours, (prayers) could be what I said above. Sorry I said the context was the book of life, I just plain old remembered it wrong. I guess I had a senior moment, and I am only 40

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Ray Berrian]

The Lord that I have come to know and love can handle the work load of mega-millions of prayers per day or hour. The Lord Jesus does not sub-contract His work or ministry to glorified saints, coming out of either the Protestant or Catholic churches.

Mary too has again seen her son in Heaven and spends her efforts in worship the Son of God, our Savior, as do all people who enter Heaven. If anyone serves the Lord in Heaven it is His angels. [Hebrews 1:14] I believe angels bring about Providence in our lives and they protect us. [Psalm 34:7]

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi Carson and Larae,

Hope you two are well. If you read Rev. 5:8 in context with the verses before it it seems to be saying something slightly different then what you want it to say. Couldn't the odours, which are the prayers of the saints, be symbolic of the prayers that went up from earth to heaven when the saints got saved?

Brian,

I'd like to offer another line of thought to consider. God, who is in heaven, or who is heaven (you know what I mean!) still toils at the work of saving all of His children. Here on earth we are told not only to save ourselves, but to work for the salvation of others. Are we to imagine that those who did follow the will of God on earth, and who are now in heaven, suddenly stop being interested in the work of saving the rest of God's children, and just want to plop down on the beach of paradise with a margarita?

Or, is it more likely that their work and their reward and their joy in heaven is, at least partially, to continue to work for the salvation of the world, just as it is still God's work and His joy to continue to work for the salvation of the world? Doesn't it make sense that, in the all-loving presence of God in heaven, our reward and our joy is to pour ourselves out fully not just in worship of God, but also in the continuing work of God? God is love, and in heaven we will be perfected and joined with God. Love gives, it does not take. Won't it be the desire of the angels and saints to continue to pour themselves out in the work of God?

 

[Kathryn]

"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Luke 15:7

Sure seems to me like they care and pray for us, and are aware of us. This tells us what gives them joy.

God Bless

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The Lord that I have come to know and love can handle the work load of mega-millions of prayers per day or hour. The Lord Jesus does not sub-contract His work or ministry to glorified saints, coming out of either the Protestant or Catholic churches.

Mary too has again seen her son in Heaven and spends her efforts in worship the Son of God, our Savior, as do all people who enter Heaven. If anyone serves the Lord in Heaven it is His angels. [Hebrews 1:14] I believe angels bring about Providence in our lives and they protect us. [Psalm 34:7]

Wow, that's completely different than on earth. On earth we know that "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." But it sounds like in heaven all we will be asked to do, and all we will want to do, is to cry out 'Lord, Lord.'

Seems that we will have been better Christians when we were on earth than when we are in heaven!

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Luke 15:7

Sure seems to me like they care and pray for us, and are aware of us. This tells us what gives them joy.

God Bless

Excellent point, Kathryn!

How, indeed, could it be otherwise in heaven?

 

[thessalonian]

"If our Lord cannot save his people without the influence of the RCC, infant
baptism, uninterrupted attendance at mass, eating flesh and drinking blood,
handling a rosary, kissing the ground the pope walks on and going into a
frenzy over dead bodies.......................
"

More foolishness and anti-catholic habadashery. Could we add having shadows of men fall on you, touching and bones of prophets and hankerchiefs to your list Singer. If you know your Bible you know what I'm talking about. I haven't kissed any ground the Pope has walked on and I'm not too worried. There will be many in heaven who have never touched a rosary bead but far fewer than if everyone had. Oh wait, your one of those who trusts in his own understanding contrary to proverbs 3:5 and not that of the shepherds whom Christ left us. I'm barking up the proverbial wrong tree. You do have ears but you could stand to have the audiologist turn them on.


Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Diane,

"Dolls, idols, graven images do not heal. They are NOT God. "

Amen. Hey, maybe you did the council of trent. It said the very same thing.

 

[Singer]

Thes:

Did you notice that I was resounding Carson's sarcasm with his statement:

"If our Lord cannot save his people without churches, altar calls, printing
presses, preachers, teachers, apostles, and evangelists, then maybe
we are not worshipping the true and correct God."

More foolishness and anti-catholic habadashery.
There will be many in heaven who have never touched a rosary bead but far
fewer than if everyone had. Oh wait, your one of those who trusts in his own
understanding contrary to proverbs 3:5 and not that of the shepherds whom
Christ left us.

You imply that touching rosary beads will increase population in heaven. What
kind of bible are you reading anyhow? I thought it was "Whosoever believes in
me shall never die"........where do you see toys in that ?

Proverbs 3:5 says "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto
thine own understanding".....yet you are overwilling to submit to the wiles
of the understanding of men who came before you and thereby bypass your
own "trusting in the Lord". As for me, I'll skip the rigamarole and rely on the
living God.

The scripture might as well read: "Trust in the Lord and lean not unto the understanding
of others".

Your option is to "Trust in the Lord" OR lean unto your (or other's) understanding.

You lean unto Catholicism which has been understood FOR you.
Your option is to trust the Lord.

 

[Briguy]

Mike and Kathryn, Thanks for your points. The verse that talks about joy in Heaven for the one that is saved, is interesting. I'm not sure I have really given that a lot of thought before. I guess I also thought of the joy in Heaven as between Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and the angels, and that may very well be what it is referring to but then again you may be right as well. The other thought is just because Heaven rejoices when one is found doesn't mean the "saints" are allowed to watch what goes on here on earth. In fact, in a logical sense I don't see us in Heaven being able to hear the prayers of thousands, pray for others, sing, play music, and worship God at the same time. I realize we will be "better" then we are here but considering what we see in Luke 16 (I think) Laz. was limited on what he could do and it did not appear he was "multitasking".

Another thought when using that verse Kathryn, to mean what you say. Do they know more in heaven then us? Does God know the future? Yes, of course you say. Think in terms of OSAS. You are telling me that when a lost sinner is found they rejoice in heaven, but your doctrine says that that "found" one can turn and walk away from God. So why would God allow rejoicing in Heaven for one that will in the end not be saved? The other thought with this verse is that if they rejoice in Heaven when one is found, they would then have sorrow if the found becomes lost again, right? Logic would say that and there is no sorrow in Heaven, which leads to the next point, if we could watch our loved ones not get saved and go to Hell upon death, then Heaven would be full of sorrow and be full of happiness for those who are saved. The roller coaster ride should be here on earth, not in the perfection of Heaven. Thanks for listening,

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Glen Seeker]

Hey,

You know that story about Lazarus where the rich guy is in Purgatory? (Can you say can of worms?)

Well, both the one in "Abraham's Bosom" and the the one in the flames show concern for others not with them. Lazarus wanted to help the rich man and the rich man wanted to help his brothers on earth.

If the one cast into the flames can love or care enough for his brothers that he would want to save them, how can it be that those who have gone to Heaven not feel the same about their brothers and sisters here on earth?

Just a thought.

 

[Briguy]

Hi Glen,

Rich guy in purgatory? Hmmmmmmmmm Well, lets read a few verses.

KJV Luke 16:23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


Glen, your thought seems to be shot down by the scriptures. The rich man is in Hell and more importantly (in case you want to argue the KJV word usage of "hell") there is a gulf fixed between the two places and you CANNOT go from one to the other (vs. 26) Not to mention "torment". So I am washed by the blood of the Lamb and turned over to torment? The blood of my Lamb will do the whole job and deliver me to the presence of Himself.

Now how about addressing my thoughts/questions from my post. I am interested to see what you and others will say about what I wrote.

Also, no challanges yet to my post on miracles.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Brian,

You asked, "So I am washed by the blood of the Lamb and turned over to torment?"

Actually, if you haven't been baptized, then you haven't washed your robe and made it white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:14). For the early Christians reading this passage in the Liturgy, this imagery is baptismal and it evoked - in the Christian's mind - the white baptismal robe given to the newly baptized neophytes, who had just been washed in the cleansing waters of baptism.

And, the purgation of Purgatory starts now in this life as you undergo sanctification, that is, if you've been baptized. Your baptism is the beginning of your sanctification; we have yet to be made clean wholly and entirely by the efficacious blood of Christ, which really and truly cleanses us of all impurities.

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life." (Rom 6:22)