God has chosen out for Himself a Covenant people from all eternity, and his will to save them will get done period! That includes keeping them forever secured!
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Walter Martin points out that the Adventist denomination is not a cult. Continued
- Thread starter BobRyan
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One Baptism
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Believe what you will, for you will not be convinced by all the scripture brother BobRyan, I and even others have cited. By your own present refusal to obey God in His explicit commandment, you show what faith you presently have. In the end, unless you repent, it will have done you nothing, it will be seen to have been a hope and faith in vanity. I shake my head in sorrow for you. You have your own law, not God's. You presently follow your will, not His [Psalms 40:8 KJB].
I follow the Gospel of Jesus, while you and Bob follow that Gospel of a false prophetess!
One Baptism
Active Member
Do you think to trap me by Hebrews? You show yourself of the character of the Pharisees and Saducees hoping to trip.
Read such prayerfully and carefully, the 'law' it refers to there in Hebrews 7:19, 10:1 KJB, is identified specifically as that which was given under the Levitical priesthood, dealing with sacrifices, see Hebrews 7:11,21,28, etc, and the Ten Commandments existed before the Levitical priesthood and says nothing about sacrifices, even as shown to Moses in the mount, Exodus 25:9,40; Numbers 8:4; Hebrews 8:5, being already in the Heavens, in the true Tabernacle [Hebrews 8:2; Revelation 11:19, 15:5 KJB].
Read instead:
Psalms 19:7 KJB - The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
1 John 2:3 KJB - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4 KJB - He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:5 KJB - But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:6 KJB - He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 2:3 KJB - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4 KJB - He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:5 KJB - But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:6 KJB - He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Sadly that little half-snip bend-and-wrench micro-snippet from Romans 11 is not at all what you have spun it to be in your statement above.
Indeed -
And we know this -
Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Those who constantly complain that Ellen White wrote the Gospel of Matthew and the book of Romans 11 -- need to get some therapy
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Are you a NEW Covenant Christian with the LAW written on the heart? Hebrews 8:6-10 says we are. And you?
Are you a NEW testament Christian whose faith "establishes the LAW" ?? Rom 3:31 - says we are. -- and you?
Are you among the saints who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"? Rev 14:12 says we are... And you?
Are you among the saints for whom "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"? 1 Cor 7:19 says we are... And you?
1 John 5:2-3 says that for NT saints -- "This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments". How about you?
We are no longer under the priesthood of Levitical priesthhoods, but under the One of Christ now, correct?
One Baptism
Active Member
Christians, a nation of Royal priesthood [Kings and Priests; Exodus 19:6; 1 Corinthians 4:8; 1 Timothy 6:15; 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6, 5:10, 16:12, 17:14, 19:16, 21:24 KJB] have replaced [been taken for] the [natural] Levitical:
Isaiah 66:21 KJB - And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
See also Psalms 135:20; Jeremiah 33:14-18; Zechariah 12:10-12; Malachi 2:4-7; 3:3, in the context of the New Covenant, Malachi 3:1 KJB.
Christ Jesus is of the order of the priesthood after Melchizedek's, as per Psalms 110:4; Hebrews 5:6,10, 6:20, 7:1,10,11,15,17,21, and so on, being as Jesus is of the lineage of the tribe of Judah [lion of the tribe of Judah; Malachi 3:4; Hebrews 7:14; Revelation 5:5 KJB].
Took you about two seconds for you to continue to quote YOU! You cannot change, bc you are stuck with EGW.
Here is the bottom line Bob, there are two choices. Tell me which one you choose...
A) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
B) For by forgiving your servant ye are saved, and that of yourselves, it is the law of God.
I believe that means you would despise EGW's religion then. No other Christian sect for some 1800 years before EGW believed the things she dreamed up. That would mean God would have to be incompetent for not clearly interpreting His Word by the Holy Ghost to His children for 1800 years.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Easy -- OSAS does not surive the test of "Sola Scriptura"
Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Indeed -- Christ shows us the "fully forgiven" about whom it is said "I forgave you ALL" and yet due to subsequent actions of the "fully forgiven" -- they experience forgiveness revoked. until he should pay all that was due
Question for the reader -- In your POV is there such a thing as "Salvation where you pay your own debt of sin" -- having been "forgiven all" he then had to "repay all".. OR is Christ simply mistaken in your POV?
OSAS does not survive the sola-scriptura test in Matthew 18 nor in Romans 11 nor in Ezekiel 18 (nor even Matthew 6)
Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
True.
And we know this -
Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
And we know this --
Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
1. You see quote after quote of scripture and claim that my posting scripture is merely "quoting me"
2. I see your post complainging about what you read in Matthew 18 and then blaming the Matthew 18 text "on me" as if I quoted myself by posting it..
I think we can all see at least that "detail". Essentially you are arguing with Matthew 18 and "blaming it on me" because I dared to quote Matthew 18.
Where is the difficult part there?
Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Indeed -- Christ shows us the "fully forgiven" about whom it is said "I forgave you ALL" and yet due to subsequent actions of the "fully forgiven" -- they experience forgiveness revoked. until he should pay all that was due
Question for the reader -- In your POV is there such a thing as "Salvation where you pay your own debt of sin" -- having been "forgiven all" he then had to "repay all".. OR is Christ simply mistaken in your POV?
OSAS does not survive the sola-scriptura test in Matthew 18 nor in Romans 11 nor in Ezekiel 18 (nor even Matthew 6)
Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
True.
And we know this -
Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
And we know this --
Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
1. You see quote after quote of scripture and claim that my posting scripture is merely "quoting me"
2. I see your post complainging about what you read in Matthew 18 and then blaming the Matthew 18 text "on me" as if I quoted myself by posting it..
I think we can all see at least that "detail". Essentially you are arguing with Matthew 18 and "blaming it on me" because I dared to quote Matthew 18.
Where is the difficult part there?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Less creative writing... more Bible please
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
True. But that does not mean we can take God's name in vain
Apparently in you not being able to answer a question. Just because you post a bunch of scripture doesn't mean you are applying it correctly. so what we need from you is a base line position on salvation and then we can go from there.
Here is the bottom line Bob, there are two choices. Tell me which one you choose...
A) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
B) For by forgiving your servant ye are saved, and that of yourselves, it is the law of God.
Once you answer this question we can look at your bible quotes and see if they line up with what you believe about A verses B.
One Baptism
Active Member
Not at all, since Ellen G White [James White, Joseph Bates, ORL Crosier, Hiram Edson, Uriah Smith, etc, etc] is not the originator of any religion, but the follower of Jesus Christ in His way. I cannot despise what is true, nor those who acknowledge truth.
That which is despised is that religion of those who ask for truth, and then when it is directly given them, they disavow it was ever given or provided, and do not acknowledge that their inquiry was addressed specifically, because at that point it involves pride, and refusal to admit what is in fact reality.
I provided to you several quotations which addressed your question. Do you acknowledge that there are others who see the same in regards 'revocation', yes/no? The question is not a trap, it is simply asking do you acknowledge what was presented to you to fulfill your request?
Which doctrines do you specifically speak of? If you could please be more specific, then we could address each one, by provided historically cited material on each specific doctrine for you. For instance, from just an historical perspective beyond the date of the close of canon of scripture:
[1] Sabbath? - It was universally known, see also Sozomen, Socrates Scholasticus, etc, etc, - 1st Century
[2] state of the dead? and hell/fire - in the recent past, William Tyndale, John Frith, George Wishart, John Milton, Baptists, among others and Martin Luther of the Reformation itself taught that the dead are asleep, knowing nothing, knowing full well that the Scripture taught it and used it against Rome's paganistic teachings, along with Samuel Richardson, E. Earl Ellis, John Milton, A.A. Phelps, and so on. Citations upon request.
[3] Michael the archangel is Jesus, the eternal Son of God the Father, not a created angel [as Gabriel, Lucifer]? - Melito of Sardis [165-175 AD], Martin Luther, Philip Melanchton, Patrick Fairbairn, Matthew Poole, John Guyse, Reinerus Vogelsangius, Johannes Cloppenburgh, Campegius Vitringa Sr., Johann Wigand, George Whitefield, Christmas Evans, John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Geneva bible translators, John Wesley, John Calvin, Hengstenberg, John Bunyan, Adam Clarke, and many others. All citations in original language material where possible upon request, or see the following links - TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free & TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free go ahead and download both, it's all documented, for anyone who wants to know the facts, the truth that satan has attempted to hide and bury.
[4] prophet, prophesying, dreams and visions? - "... I can tell you a prophecy that John Huss gave, and one of which Luther gave, and of a dream of Frederick the elector of Saxony, Patrick of Ireland's [a seventh-day Sabbath keeper, in "The Confessio"] dream, William Miller, the visions of William Foy and Hazen Foss, and the visions and dreams of sister Ellen G. White, brother Matteson had a dream [Testimonies For the Church, Volume 1, Chapter 104, page 596.3-598.2 [JULY 15, 1867]]: and Manilaq the Eskimo prophet, and Auka the south American native, etc..." - Prophets and the Gift of Prophecy Continuing
Prophets and the Gift of Prophecy Continuing
Prophets and the Gift of Prophecy Continuing
Prophets and the Gift of Prophecy Continuing
Prophets and the Gift of Prophecy Continuing
[5] Diet and health and social? - Luke in the Gospels, etc. In England there were reformers against slavery, etc. Joseph Bates, a sea-captain, health reformer, against tobacco, against slavery, etc. King James I of England, wrote on temperance in diet, non-smoking, sexual purity, cleanliness, and warned of spirtual attacks by the devil, in his Basilikon Doron; Counterblaste to Tobacco and Daemonologie:
"... loathsome to the eye, hateful to the nose, harmful to the brain, dangerous to the lungs and in the black stinking fumes thereof, nearest resembling that horrible Stygian smoke of that pit which is bottomless...Such is the force of that natural self love as we cannot be content unless we imitate everything that our fellows do, and so prove ourselves capable of everything whereof they are capable; like apes, counterfeiting the manners of others, to our own destruction.”6
“The husband shall not be ashamed, to reduce thereby his delicate, wholesome and clear complexioned wife to that extremity that either she must also corrupt her sweet breath therewith, or else resolve to live in a perpetual stinking torment.”7 ..."
“But especially eschew to be effeminate in your clothes, in perfuming, preining, or such like...and make not a fool of yourself in disguising or wearing long your hair or nails, which are but excrements of nature.”
“Guard against corrupt leide, as book-language, and pen-and-ink horn terms, and last of all, mignard and effeminate ones.”, etc.
[6] Revocation of God's forgiveness? - has already been cited in part - Walter Martin points out that the Adventist denomination is not a cult. Continued“The husband shall not be ashamed, to reduce thereby his delicate, wholesome and clear complexioned wife to that extremity that either she must also corrupt her sweet breath therewith, or else resolve to live in a perpetual stinking torment.”7 ..."
“But especially eschew to be effeminate in your clothes, in perfuming, preining, or such like...and make not a fool of yourself in disguising or wearing long your hair or nails, which are but excrements of nature.”
“Guard against corrupt leide, as book-language, and pen-and-ink horn terms, and last of all, mignard and effeminate ones.”, etc.
[7] Sanctuary, literally, in Heaven? - See Hebrews, Exodus 25:9,40, Numbs 8:4; 1 Chronicles 28:12,19; Hebrews 8:5; Revelation 11:19, 15:5, and so on.
etc.
Truth is progressive, the light increases, and the word magnified, the depth increases, knowledge increases, as Daniel 12 reveals, but as you can see, as demonstrated now, it simply grows upon the foundation that was already laid by Christ Jesus. Think about it. First there was Moses and the Torah, then later additional materials which increased the knowledge of that which was given to Moses by the prophets, Kings, etc and then there were the Gospels and Epistles, and Revelation, all increasing that which was given before in the OT. God does not stop sharing the Light, but expects us to grow in wisdom, and knowledge of His laws. As time moves forward, prophecies that had not yet been fulfilled become fulfilled.
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I'll present you with the same question i asked Bob....
Here is the bottom line One, there are two choices. Tell me which one you choose...
A) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
B) For by forgiving your servant ye are saved, and that of yourselves, it is the law of God.
Once you answer this question we can look at your bible quotes and see if they line up with what you believe about A verses B.
So you believe the Gospel message on how one is saved has been changing over the centuries since the bible was completed?
Jesus promised to build His true church, that hell and satan would not stop it, yet EW thought that until her coming, 1800 years the true church was left abandon in the wilderness and apostate!
How are we doing that?
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