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Walter Martin's "Kingdom of the Cults" declares Adventist are not a Cult and destroys Hoekema's book

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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
This was my "actual" posted response.

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

Isaiah 66
But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments

And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,

And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord


John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.



And then there is the facts. I gave you the obvious message that glares from the text. You have your EGW tunnel vision on a one liner about eating the sacrifice, which you cannot even see the sacrifice,

Sadly for that bit of creative writing you are doing.

My only statement was ..."Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?"
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Have you come up with any Christian denomination or organization that sees Is 66 as Christians being damned to hell for eating mice? I didn't think so. .

let me guess.

You either consider that "quote of you" to be scripture or else it is a close review in your POV of actual details in thee text.

True??

Is that you -- pointing out details in the text to me??

Seriously?

That's it??
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
As I said before, SDAs are stuck, they can ONLY believe as they are told to believe by....

People limited to quoting themselves are stuck, they can ONLY believe as their own quotes of themselves tell them to believe by reason of self-quoting. There can be no Sola Scriptura testing for it is totally biased when one is sold-out on "qouting themselves".

I on the other hand - - quote the text. And sadly for your vitriol - you show not one instance of me quoting Ellen White so that I can read Isaiah 66 or point you to it -- all day long.

Think about it Steaver. You have Catholic members of this board seeing what you are doing here after you have in the past held up the sola-scriptura practice to them? What are they supposed to think now that you appear to flatly reject it or at least appear to find it "inconvenient" at the moment?
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
People limited to quoting themselves are stuck, they can ONLY believe as their own quotes of themselves tell them to believe by reason of self-quoting. There can be no Sola Scriptura testing for it is totally biased when one is sold-out on "qouting themselves".

I on the other hand - - quote the text. And sadly for your vitriol - you show not one instance of me quoting Ellen White so that I can read Isaiah 66 or point you to it -- all day long.

Think about it Steaver. You have Catholic members of this board seeing what you are doing here after you have in the past held up the sola-scriptura practice to them? What are they supposed to think now that you appear to flatly reject it or at least appear to find it "inconvenient" at the moment?

Even your non answering of my questions is answering my questions and exposing the fallacies you embrace.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
steaver said:
As I said before, SDAs are stuck, they can ONLY believe as they are told to believe by....

People limited to quoting themselves are stuck, they can ONLY believe as their own quotes of themselves tell them to believe by reason of self-quoting. There can be no Sola Scriptura testing for it is totally biased when one is sold-out on "qouting themselves".

I on the other hand - - quote the text. And sadly for your vitriol - you show not one instance of me quoting Ellen White so that I can read Isaiah 66 or point you to it -- all day long.

Think about it Steaver. You have Catholic members of this board seeing what you are doing here after you have in the past held up the sola-scriptura practice to them? What are they supposed to think now that you appear to flatly reject it or at least appear to find it "inconvenient" at the moment?

Even your non answering of my questions is answering my questions and exposing the fallacies you embrace.

1. you keep questioning the text .. you are not reading.
2. My post was not in response to your question.. it was in response to your vitriol. There is a difference.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
People limited to quoting themselves are stuck, they can ONLY believe as their own quotes of themselves tell them to believe by reason of self-quoting. There can be no Sola Scriptura testing for it is totally biased when one is sold-out on "qouting themselves".

I on the other hand - - quote the text. And sadly for your vitriol - you show not one instance of me quoting Ellen White so that I can read Isaiah 66 or point you to it -- all day long.

Think about it Steaver. You have Catholic members of this board seeing what you are doing here after you have in the past held up the sola-scriptura practice to them? What are they supposed to think now that you appear to flatly reject it or at least appear to find it "inconvenient" at the moment?
What NT verse states that we in the Church still are under the OT sabatth?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
What NT verse states that we in the Church still are under the OT sabatth?

What NT text says "delete scripture"???

What NT text says "ignore Christ when HE quotes scripture"???

What NT text says "Do not take God's name in vain"??

By contrast with all those "games" you have suggested...we DO have...

"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine..." 2 Tim 3:16.


Acts 18:4 - both Jews AND GENTILES worship "Every Sabbath" coming to hear Gospel preaching.

The point remains.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What NT text says "delete scripture"???

What NT text says "ignore Christ when HE quotes scripture"???

What NT text says "Do not take God's name in vain"??

By contrast with all those "games" you have suggested...we DO have...

"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine..." 2 Tim 3:16.


Acts 18:4 - both Jews AND GENTILES worship "Every Sabbath" coming to hear Gospel preaching.

The point remains.
And later on,in VERY same book, the Gentiles had moved to worship on the Lords day, Sunday.....
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
steaver said:
As I said before, SDAs are stuck, they can ONLY believe as they are told to believe by....

People limited to quoting themselves are stuck, they can ONLY believe as their own quotes of themselves tell them to believe by reason of self-quoting. There can be no Sola Scriptura testing for it is totally biased when one is sold-out on "qouting themselves".

I on the other hand - - quote the text. And sadly for your vitriol - you show not one instance of me quoting Ellen White so that I can read Isaiah 66 or point you to it -- all day long.

Think about it Steaver. You have Catholic members of this board seeing what you are doing here after you have in the past held up the sola-scriptura practice to them? What are they supposed to think now that you appear to flatly reject it or at least appear to find it "inconvenient" at the moment?


Even your non answering of my questions is answering my questions and exposing the fallacies you embrace.


1. you keep questioning the text .. you are not reading.
2. My post was not in response to your question.. it was in response to your vitriol.
There is a difference.[/QUOTE]


You are too kind sir.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
And later on,in VERY same book, the Gentiles had moved to worship on the Lords day, Sunday.....

Not in real life. I real life you have "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 -- and "nothing" ... "later on" about "every week-day-1" and we all know it.

By merely "quoting you" you get to a great many stories...

I prefer the actual Bible.

Give me the Bible " AND the Words IN the Bible"

Good, and do not have any of the words of EW added, period!

We have Y1 "added" all day long here with Y1 going so far as to "quote himself" for his doctrine.

Please choose "the Bible" instead.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
SDA is not as "closed" and rejecting of the doctrine of "faith-alone" and non-SDA's as necessarily "lost" as other groups (such as most of the other sabbatarians, and the JW's, etc.) and also accept the Trinity, which is the main thing that "gets them over" to CRI and some others. (That's the number one "deal-breaker" for accepting a movement or not).

True. There are "the basics" which is why it is not "practical" to condemn everyone that does not agree with everything this or that Baptist or Methodist says... as not being Christian at all.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Not in real life. I real life you have "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 -- and "nothing" ... "later on" about "every week-day-1" and we all know it.

By merely "quoting you" you get to a great many stories...

I prefer the actual Bible.

Give me the Bible " AND the Words IN the Bible"



We have Y1 "added" all day long here with Y1 going so far as to "quote himself" for his doctrine.

Please choose "the Bible" instead.
They gathered on the Sunday to worship, as recorded down to us in the Book of Acts !
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
They gathered on the Sunday to worship, as recorded down to us in the Book of Acts !

They gathered "every Sabbath" for worship and Gospel preaching in Acts 18:4.. "They" being BOTH Jews AND Gentiles according to the text.

You "could find" a one-off gathering "ever" on week-day-1 in the Bible but that is about it.
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:
Martin writes;

It is a serious charge to maintain that any professing Christian group denies justification by grace alone as the basis of eternal salvation; and, if the Adventists were guilty of this, surely there would be ground for considering them as a cultic system. However, literally scores of times in their book Questions on Doctrines, and in various other publications, the Adventists affirm that salvation only come by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ’s sacrifice upon the cross.

This is the "honest" approach that Martin recommends and it is specifically the rejection of it for which Hoekema is flat out condemned. Martin chooses to accept the official teaching and not "one off whatever-one-may-think" as the basis for denomination evaluation.

And there it is again. Statements and publications are the mask. .

Indeed that is precisely what Martin condemned in all his work when evaluating any group at all.

A perfect "contrast".

So then no going to Westborough Baptist to find "one guy" and then condemn the entire Baptist group. But what is even worse is your suggestion of "making stuff up" for the one guy you do find.. .and then smearing the entire group with whatever you "imagine" while ignoring every scripture posted in their response.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
They gathered "every Sabbath" for worship and Gospel preaching in Acts 18:4.. "They" being BOTH Jews AND Gentiles according to the text.

You "could find" a one-off gathering "ever" on week-day-1 in the Bible but that is about it.
You must have missed Acts 20:7!
 
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