Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Since Jesus died for Judas, how does this fit with the "reformed" doctrine of "election", and more specifically, the Atonement? Can you please answer this?
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War On The Sinner's Prayer by Paul Washer
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
Since Jesus died for Judas, how does this fit with the "reformed" doctrine of "election", and more specifically, the Atonement? Can you please answer this?
I think that he would hold that many who are not saved are deluded by that one time sinner prayer that they were saved.
He does, its just not as a reformed/calvinist like myself would, but more as a "free will" salvation person does.
I think that he is reacting against those who would see themselves as being a Christian based upon a one time prayer, but they have not evidenced a change lifestyle, as maybe just emotionally assented to Jesus, but not really receiving Him as the Lord and Messiah!
The sinners prayer will indeed be a means to get someone saved, but needs to evidence that by a lifestyle change to some degree!
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Yes. Jesus died for all. Judas is part of "all." We have said over and over and over again that Jesus died for all. His sacrifice on the cross brought blessings to all people. The latter rains fall on the just and the unjust.
What Jesus did NOT do is apply His Atonement to Judas.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." (ESV), and others. good Greek support!
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
So you are admitting that someone that Jesus died for (shed His blood for) can be lost in hell?
Ok? Now can you answer my question?
He died for all. I don't know how else to say that so you can under stand it.
He (Jesus) died (sacrificed his life) for (to benefit) all (everybody everywhere everywhen).
You seem to be conflating the metaphor "shed His blood" with "applied the Atonement." They are not the same thing. "He shed His blood" is a metaphor, called a synecdoche, indicating his violent, sacrificial death. It was the blood sprinkled on the Mercy Seat every Yom Kippur that was the evidence that the Paschal Lamb had been slain.
But it was His Sacrificial Death that purchased the Atonement, which satisfies God's demand for Justice (the wages of sin is death). The Atonement is not the blood (Sacrificial Death). It is what paid the cost of the Atonement. And it is the application of the Atonement that achieves our Heavenly destination.
The problem is that today's modern (not Modernist, just meaning contemporary) Christianity is that the vast majority of today's Christians are horribly untaught.
Christians today conflate the blood, the death, the sacrifice, the atonement, propitiation, regeneration, salvation, ect., as if they all mean the same thing. They don't!
Every 3rd grader in our Sunday School knows that a simple way to understand the Atonement is "At-one-ment." The Atonement makes us "At One" with God. Anyone can see from that that those to whom the Atonement is applied are At One with God. And that makes it clear the Atonement CANNOT be applied to everyone without exception or everyone without exception would be At One with God and this saved. Such is not the case.
What's your point?
απ αρχηςι = from (the) beginning. The vast majority of manuscripts. Even Aleph (Sinaiticus), the "oldest and best" reads as above.
Only B F G & P read απαρχην.
Not very good Greek support.
But even so, He still chose them to be saved. That doesn't change.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
What's your point?
απ αρχηςι = from (the) beginning. The vast majority of manuscripts. Even Aleph (Sinaiticus), the "oldest and best" reads as above.
Only B F G & P read απαρχην.
Not very good Greek support.
But even so, He still chose them to be saved. That doesn't change.
Actually, for textual evidence Mss, ECF, ancient versions, they are about equal. So not a text to use for any Doctrine!
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
"Christians today conflate the blood, the death, the sacrifice, the atonement, propitiation, regeneration, salvation, ect., as if they all mean the same thing. They don't!"
Show me from the Bible the difference!
As soon as you defend your theory that the Ninevites who were saved under the preaching of Jonah were not elect.
Then I will be glad to show you, from the scriptures that:
The blood, the death, the sacrifice, is not the atonement, is not the propitiation, is not regeneration, which is not salvation.
Balls in your court.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
I'll pass thanks
Where in the world did you get that information? Just the Majority text outnumbers the B variant by several orders of magnitude.
I thought so. You make an absolutely ridiculous statement, and when challenged to defend it you run away.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Yep. Another example of making a false claim then running away instead of defending it. How utterly sad.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Maybe if you showed some respect for others on here, they would interact more with you!