"Oh! Oh! I'm offended! I need to run off to my "safe space" because the big mean old man asked me a question I can't honestly answer!"
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War On The Sinner's Prayer by Paul Washer
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
No, but I laugh a lot at the stuff on the Baptist Board.sure you are not a comedian?
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Duplicate
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
They know there is no verse in the Bible that teaches we have free will unto salvation. No matter how many times they are corrected, they hold to some mystery verse they cannot produce.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
You were not disrespected in any way. What happened is that you got cornered by your own words.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
wow! that's rich coming from you! You have thus far failed to answer what I have written to you, because you know that there is no war to get around what I have shown to be true! Deal with what we were discussing before, first!
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Thats what you think! Let me give you the verses then. Do you think that God was playing games, or lying, when He says in Ezekiel, "Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’". When God says to "turn" that is "repent", it clearly shows that they have a CHOICE here, to repent or not (see the context, even chapter 18), which is for salvation! Was Joshua also lying, when he says, "“Now therefore fear the Lord and serve Him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”" (24:14-15). Or, Jesus to the Jews of His day, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:39-40). Not as some have twisted its meaning to "they could not come", something impossible in the Greek! And, the Paul tells the hostile Jews, "And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46). Here we read of the Jews themselves "rejecting" the Gospel Message, and considered themselves not worth of eternal life! Not that God did, but here they CHOOSE to do so!
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
time for 
Please correct my understanding.
In John's account of the Last Supper, didn't Judas leave before Christ instituted it?
And, did Christ die for the "Son of Perdition" (Judas)?
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
My last post before bed.
John does not record the Lord's Supper at all, only the Passover meal. Yes, according to Luke's account of the Lord's Supper, which Judas did take part in, Jesus said to him, and the other 11, "this is My blood, shed for YOU". If Jesus did not die for Judas, then surely He would have waited for Judas to have left the room, which was not long after, and then instituted the Lord's Supper, and spoken the words to the 11 only. I think the timing is important, and Luke's account. I have just checked John Calvin on Luke, and he too, with John Gill, confirm that Judas did take the Lord's Supper.
Good night, and God bless to all!
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Are you under the illusion that I have to answer the way you want me to?
I provided you with a large amount of the scripture countering your claim that there is not a single verse in the Bible that speaks of election and salvation. You only addressed verses in Ephesians and you engaged in eisegesis then.
Here it is again:
John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)
Born Again to a Living Hope
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
Ezekiel 36:25-26English Standard Version (ESV)
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Deuteronomy 30:6English Standard Version (ESV)
6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
Only the scriptures matter. I have proven that the Bible does indeed speak of election before the foundation of the world. Or do you think it's acceptable to rip that page out?
Any disrespect going on is completely on you. You can be sure that I won't bullied.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
It seems you have missed the other parts of the book of John.
John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Unregenerate people cannot choose salvation. It is against their nature. The scriptures prove it.
Who said that God takes joy in the lost? I didn't. TC didn't. It's a non sequitur.
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Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Jesus died for Judas, but Judas was never saved, "you are clean , but not all of you"
Good night again!
Yes. Christ died for all. Judas was part of "all."
But we can't make the error of conflating the death of Christ with the Atonement. They are not the same thing.
Christ died for all, including Judas, which resulted in blessings for all mankind. (The early and later rains. The sun shines on both the just and the unjust.)
But Christ did not Atone for Judas's sins and so, as a result, he is now in perdition.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
"But we can't make the error of conflating the death of Christ with the Atonement. They are not the same thing."
The Holy Bible very clearly says, contrary to you:
"For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3)
You saying that this reference (and others), which speaks of Christ's "death", is not the "Atonement"? You are way wrong!
<Sigh> How many times do I have to say the same thing before it sinks in?
"Atonement" means the reconciliation of God and mankind, the reparation for a wrong.
The Sacrificial death of Christ is the PRICE of the Atonement, not the Atonement itself. That is what it cost to bring about the reconciliation of God and mankind. 1 Corinthians 6:20 says we were "bought with a price."
No, I am not wrong. The Sacrifice of Christ is the price of the Atonement. It is what our reconciliation cost. 2 Corinthians 5:19 "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself."
You continue to confuse Atonement with Propitiation with Sacrifice with Regeneration with Salvation.
These are very different things, all important, but very different aspects, of our redemption.