Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
You quote 1 Corinthians 6:20. you will note that the same Greek word is used for the LOST as being "bought" by Jesus, in 2 Peter 2:1!
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War On The Sinner's Prayer by Paul Washer
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
You quote 1 Corinthians 6:20. you will note that the same Greek word is used for the LOST as being "bought" by Jesus, in 2 Peter 2:1!
Yes, I know. It is talking about the price paid. That is the whole point!
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Right, so the lost in hell, were actually PURCHASED by Jesus on the Cross, which they deny, and will be damned for this! This my friend, is what the Bible calls "Atonement", which Christ has made for the entire world, but APPLIED when the sinner repents! universal Atonement, but not universal Salvation!
No, it is not. That is the PRICE of the Atonement.
The Atonement is sufficient for every person who ever lived, but is not applied on behalf of ever person who ever lived.
Exactly.
You just said it is ONLY applied to repentant believers. And now you say it is universal. Universal Atonement means Universal Salvation.
A person who has had his entire sin debt paid, who's sins have been atoned for, and is now "at-one" with God is, by definition, saved.
I am sorry to have to say this, but if you were one of my students in my Systematic Theology class I would give you an F because you have no real grasp of the theology of soteriology. I am not talking about Particular Redemption, I am talking about your seeming inability to understand what Atonement is, what Propitiation is, what regeneration is, etc. etc. And those things are the verse basis of soteriology.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Thank the Lord that He has PASSED me!
T,
Perhaps listing each and presenting a definition and application would help in even the casual reader being able to catch the distinction.
Too often, (imo) the understanding of the word "atonement" has been marred by poor background teaching, or teaching that assumed a certain level of pre-education that just never truly took place.
To most, the atonement means a "satisfaction or reparations for an injury" a "reconciliation of God and humankind through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ" (Definition of ATONEMENT)
This, definition fits, but only in the broad application of all the specifics that went into the atonement.
Therefore, the particulars that are what make up the atonement and the atonement (imo) are confused by both those who teach the blood only for the elect, and those who are the other extreme, universalists.
Would such a presentation be better in a separate thread?
Btw, as you know, I consider "repentance" is a response of one who is granted belief. If one places repentance as a must do for salvation, that salvation has taken upon a human effort.
Though all creation will bow at the feet of Christ, only those that believe enter the eternal rest.
Was the salvation for Judas purchased by the death of Christ?
However one wishes to discuss this, Limited Atonement would appear to be biblical answer.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
No it is NOT. Read Luke's account of the Lord's Supper, chapter 22, where you will see very clearly that Jesus said to ALL the 12 Disciples, "this is My blood, shed for you"! Luke says that Judas was still there and took the Lord's Supper, after Jesus' words about His blood being shed for them ALL. If Jesus did not die for Judas, who did not get to heaven, then He would have instituted the Lord's Supper AFTER Judas left the room, and spoke the words to the 11. Matthew Henry, John Calvin, and John Gill, all "reformers", agree that Judas did part-take of the Lord's Supper! Very clear Bible evidence that Jesus' Death is NOT "limited". The teaching that suggests that it is, is an outrage against the blood/death of Jesus Christ!
God intent in the death of jesus was to save all or just some sinners?
Is the statement of John 3 for all or some?
Should you desire to limit the intent of the Cross, you need to demonstrate by Scriptures that such a limit is first warranted and second the parameters which are affixed to oblige the limit.
There is abundant evidence that ALL believers have the blood shed, and that the cross was for all believers. That is a given.
What you are asking is for an acceptance that the blood was limited and that the cross was limited to only the elect.
For that to be valid, there must be specific Scripture statements that qualify John 3.
Should their not be such statements found in Scriptures, then such a limit is NOT Scriptural.
The death of jesis for sinners was sufficient to have God save all sinners, but God choose thru that act to save some sinners.
what does this have to do with the op?
Because it removes "a sinner prayer" as some key to unlock heaven, and places it as it should as a response to a change already having taken place.
Such a prayer may certainly be offered, nor am I saying that such use is evil, but without the conversion by new life being bestowed, the repeating of a prayer by one trying to lead people to the Lord has little value.
The topic of this thread is the inconsistent declaration that the sinners prayer sends people to hell. Nothing else.
As if typical of all threads the posts stay focused rather then wandering all over the map of interest.
not one non elect person will be saveddon't forget the "non-elect", many who will also be saved!
This is absolutely true, but it is equally true that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Go figure
Scripture neither says people are elected to Salvation, or supports this in any way.
Jn 6:44 does not say He only draws the elect.
MB
If you can't show this is true with scripture then you are wrong.
MB
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:63
65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
I think a reading of John 6 is in order.
The scriptures do teach that the elect are chosen for salvation.
Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Your argument is not with me, it's with scripture.