WARNINGS NOT TO DEPART THE FAITH (HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39)

[37818]

"

Those who do not, never knew God (John 17:3).

Should have read, "Those who never knew God (John 17:3)."

We are not literally sheep and we are not literally goats to begin with. These are symbolic terms given of two groups of those who are believers and those who are not. The sheep represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word and the goat are those who do not believe and follow God's word. We are all goats to begin with (symbolically) before we come to Christ or if we depart the faith no longer believing and following God's *JOHN 10:26; HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39. The same as we are not really wheat or tares these are also symbolic of those who believe and follow and those who do not.

Hope this is helpful.

Sheep and goats are smbolic of how God see those He saves and those who remain lost in the end. So we do not agree.

 

[robycop3]

While JESUS will ALWAYS keep HIS part no matter what, man must keep his faith.

I told about the man who went from sinner to saint to sinner again.

And as far as "doing something", we gotta BELIEVE !

 

[loDebar]

MMRRPP ! WRONG !

if one KNOWS something is sinful, one should not do it !

COMMON SENSE !

You can sin by not doing the right thing

 

[Calminian]

Where does it say in HEBREWS 10:26 they did not understand the Gospel? ...

It's a warning to those who have been enlightened but not yet saved, just as in Hebrews 6. Look carefully at how the author of Hebrews ends the thought.

"But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

Just as in Hebrews 6, he makes it clear that true believers persevere.

 

[Calminian]

They do not have faith but have heard the Gospel, the seed

Indeed. Reminds me of Hebrews 4:2,

"For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it."

 

[Calminian]

Heb 6 is not as you suppose and you have been told

If a believer sins, we may expect punishment for sin, not condemnation,
Fellowship may be broken, but sonship remains

A father does not disown a son because of coming home late

On this I'll disagree. Heb. 6 is about those who have tasted but not eaten. They are like Israelites who crossed the Red Sea, but not the Jordan.

 

[Calminian]

While JESUS will ALWAYS keep HIS part no matter what, man must keep his faith.

I told about the man who went from sinner to saint to sinner again.

And as far as "doing something", we gotta BELIEVE !

While this is true, the question is, can the true believer stop believing? If he can, you can't say he ever had eternal life.

 

[3rdAngel]

Then they never really were believers, were they?

To say this is to deny God's Word because it is God's Word not mine that says they were "BELIEVERS" that were "ONCE ENLIGHTENED" * HEBREWS 6:4; they tasted of the Heavenly gift; *HEBREWS 6:4; they were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4; they tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5; they tasted of the power of the world to come * HEBREWS 6:5; THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6; THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6; THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

Then in HEBREWS 10:26-39 we have more "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" and "CONSEQUENCES" of departing the faith ...

IF WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26; WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26; WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27; WE (BELIEVERS) will receive a greater punishment for returning to a life of known unrepentant sin because we have receved a knowledge of the truth and turned away from it; HEBREWS 10:29; WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an UNHOLY thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29; WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35; WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36; WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38

Yep you would have to deny a lot of scripture to teach what you are teaching. God's salvation and promises are always "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word.

Hope this helps.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel wrote: Kind of but not quite right. No one does these things to gain salvation they gain salvation by believing and following God's Word. It is given by God to believe through His Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17.

Your response...

No they do not.

So Dave in your view when God says that we gain salvation be believing and following God's Word *EPHESIANS 2:8; JOHN 3:15-21; MATTHEW 7:24-26, You disagree with what God says? For me I choose to believe God's Word.

Salvation is by grace, not of works ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ). No one gains it by doing anything...it is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).

No one has ever said we are saved by works so your making false arguments that no one is arguing about. The rest of EPHESIANS 2:8-9 says that was are saved by grace "THROUGH FAITH" (BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word. Then we have ROMANS 5:2 which also agrees with what is being shared here with youwhich says By whom also we HAVE ACCES BY FAITH INTO THIS GRACE wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. You disagree with what God says? For me I choose to believe God's Word.

Believers do good works, because they are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. God has ordained that we should walk in them ( Ephesians 2:10 ).

Indeed, this is what I am saying and your point is???

Believers do not walk in them to gain His favor, but because they already have His favor. God's favor cannot be gained by doing something...He is not a respecter of persons. Eternal life is a gift that cannot be purchased by any means. It is His gift to give.

Here you do again trying to make false arguments no one has ever said or believes. Where have I ever posted or said anywhere that we do good works to gain God's favor? If I have never said or posted such things why are you pretending that I have?

3rdAngel wrote: Your mixed up here Dave. Those who are God's Sheep are God's Sheep because they believe and follow God's Word *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27. God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him and it is to these he gives eternal life *JOHN 10:28. Notice here who it is that God gives "ETERNAL LIFE"? Yep those who "BELEIVE and FOLLOW God's WORD! Can you see your error here?

Your response below...

Again, I think it is you who are mixed up. A person does not believe, because they are not one of Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 )...which means the opposite is also true. We believe, because we are ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ), and because God chose us and caused us to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ). God acts in mercy and kindness towards a sinner, and the sinner then re-acts to His power and grace...not the other way around. That is what makes it all of grace, and none of works.

Sorry Dave your post really makes no sense. God says His Sheep are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word in JOHN 10:1-10 and JOHN 10:26-27. Your trying to read into the scriptures something that is never said. Your denying God's Word with your own words which are not God's but yours. For me I choose to believe Gods' Word which are not mine but God's. God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him. *JOHN 10:26-27. You are in error here brother.

3rdAngel said: ↑ God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him and it is to these he gives eternal life *JOHN 10:28.

I agree. But I think you have the "motive" wrong.

I see so, I only quote God's Word to you but you think I have the motive wrong? If only God's Word is provided how can the motive be wrong when it is God's Word and not my words?

To me, you appear to see that man has to do something in order to "release" God's grace.

Sure they do. We can choose to "BELIEVE" God's Word or "NOT BELIEVE" Gods' Word. We are saved by GRACE "THROUGH FAITH" and not of ourselves it is the gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. Our part is to "BELIEVE" what God says. God does the rest to make the sinner whole!

3rdAngel said: ↑ God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him and it is to these he gives eternal life *JOHN 10:28. Notice here who it is that God gives "ETERNAL LIFE"? Yep those who "BELEIVE and FOLLOW God's WORD! Can you see your error here?

Your response...

Notice here who He gives that life to: " as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ( John 17:2 ).

Dave your running away from the scriptures and scripture context. JOHN 10 is being discussed and it is the CONTEXT that is being discussed in JOHN 10:1-10 and JOHN 10:26-27 that says that those who God gives eternal life are those who "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW him. The scripture you provide here only supports the scripture shared with you that you are walking away from. Those who the father gives to JESUS are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.

Jesus Christ gives eternal life, which is to know God and His Son ( John 17:3 ), only to those whom the Father has given to the Son.

Once again thankyou this only supprts what is being shared with you here. Jesus Christ gives eternal life, which is to KNOW God and His Son ( John 17:3 ). We know God through his Word *JOHN 10:17 as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW it *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27.

No man can come to the Son, unless it has been given by the Father to do so ( John 6:65 ).

The "CONTEXT" here is from JOHN 6:60-69 which is those who BELIEVE God's WORD and those who departed and NO LONGER BELIEVED AND FOLLOWED Gods' Word; JESUS is the Word of God *JOHN 1:1-4; JOHN 1:14.

Our walk in this life rests in His eternal promises to save us and to grant us eternal life. We do good works, obey Him and call upon His name because we are saved...not to gain salvation.

Indeed and here you are again making up arguments no one has ever said or believes so your arguing with yourself again. If no one has ever said or believes we do good works to gain salvation why are you pretending that they have. Believing God's Word is not a work it is a "CONDITION" of salvation *JOHN 3:15-21.

You are free to believe as you wish as we all answer only to God come judgment day. For me I choose to believe and follow God's Word. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it.

Hope this helps.

 

[3rdAngel]

I'm not denying them... I'm disagreeing with your usage of them. As I see it, you are misunderstanding them.

Yet here you still are and have not even addressed the scriptures that you disagree with from the OP that show that a "BELIEVER" can "FALL AWAY" and depart the faith to become an "UNBELIEVER" These are God's Word not mine and you do indeed deny them with your words. Maybe you can show me what it is in the OP that you disagree with and why? If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures that are provided which are God's Word and not mine?

3rdAngel said: ↑ Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17.

Your response...

Faith comes to who? Everyone that hears? If faith comes to all those who hear the word of God, then why does everyone who hears it, not have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2, see Acts of the Apostles 17:22-34 as an example )?

Nope you are confused. Faith comes to everyone who "BELIEVES" God's Word. The GREEK Word faith also means to "BELIEVE" No one has faith if they do not "BELIEVE".

Free will? God's word answers the question ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-11, John 3:19-20 ). Man's will isn't free and unbiased.

None of the scriptures you have provided here brother say that man does not have free will to choose to "BELIEVE" God's Word not a single one. Can you please provide me with a scripture that says man does not have free will to choose to believe Gods' Word. Yet it is God's Word alone not mine that days man has free will to choose to believe and follow God's Word * PHILEMON 1:14; 1 CORINTHIANS 7:37; DEUTERONOMY 30:19; JOSHUA 24:14-15

Here's the answer: " He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 )

Your confused here Dave. This scripture only supports what is being shared with you as in God's Sheep Hear his Voice (the Word of God) and follows him *JOHN 10:26-27. He that is of God (Sheep) Hears the Word of God.

Can you see your error here?

Hope this helps.

 

[3rdAngel]

Loss of salvation is a false teaching that leads people to believe that their efforts are what saves them... Not Christ's finished work on the cross for them.
It places them back on the "treadmill" of always wondering if their efforts are "good enough" in God's eyes, and their perseverance is what ultimately saves them. In other words, they don't persevere in the faith because they are saved, but in order to gain salvation...which is not Scriptural, nor does it glorify God alone for salvation. In other words, their salvation rests on a combination of God's grace and man's efforts, which violates Romans 4:5, Romans 11:5-6 and Ephesians 2:9. That mixes works ( man's efforts ) and grace ( God's efforts ), which pollutes God's holy work of salvation. We as sinful men do not give God a "helping hand" when it comes to the gift of eternal life. This is my last reply in this thread. May God be pleased to reveal His grace and mercy to you through His precious word, as He has to me.

Rubbish! No one is saying what you are claiming and you have to deny a lot of scripture to claim that Dave and I would challenge you to prove your claims. If you cannot what say things that are not true? It is God's Word from GENESIS to REVELATION that teaches that both Salvation and all of God's promises are all "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVEING and FOLLOWING God's WORD! *JOHN 3:15-21; MATTHEW 7:24-26.

We are "WARNED" all thorugh the scriptures not to "FALL AWAY and DEPART THE FAITH" and only those who "ENDURE TO THE END" resisting temptation will receive everlasting life *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39; JAMES 1:12; ROMANS 8:12. The little word "IF" meaning both in HEBREW and GREEK is "CONDITIONAL APPLICATION" is used near 2000 times in both the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures for a reason. Then we have all the examples given all through the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures of those who "BELIEVED and FOLLOWED God's Word (God's Sheep) and those who did not BELIEVE and did not follow.

Then we have the false Gospel of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" first proclaimed in Eden from the father of lies to EVE claiming you can break God's commandments and you will not surely die *GENESIS 3:1-5. Which resulted in Adam and Eve not believing God's Word which cased the death and fall of mankind. This false Gospel is another Gospel that denies God's Word and that salvatin and God's promises are all "CONDITIONAL" on believing and following God's Word.

You have only been provided God's Word yet you deny God's Word with your own words. I know who I believe and follow brother and it is not you. Only God's Word it true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4.

Thankyou for the discussion.

 

[3rdAngel]

It's a warning to those who have been enlightened but not yet saved, just as in Hebrews 6. Look carefully at how the author of Hebrews ends the thought. "But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul." Just as in Hebrews 6, he makes it clear that true believers persevere.

Hi Calminian nice to meet you. Sounds like your name means you are a mixture of Calvinist and Arminian? I am neither and do not know much about both and choose to keep solely to Gods Word then either side. As to your post. Those who departed the faith were indeed "ONCE BELIEVERS" I just posted this to someone else just now but if you look closely through the scriptures in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 you will the proof of this from God's Word alone.

God's Word says that these people were "ONCE ENLIGHTENED" * HEBREWS 6:4; they tasted of the Heavenly gift; *HEBREWS 6:4; they were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4; they tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5; they tasted of the power of the world to come * HEBREWS 6:5; THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6; THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6; THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

Then in HEBREWS 10:26-39 we have more "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" and "CONSEQUENCES" of departing the faith ...

IF WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26; WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26; WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27; WE (BELIEVERS) will receive a greater punishment for returning to a life of known unrepentant sin because we have receved a knowledge of the truth and turned away from it; HEBREWS 10:29; WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an UNHOLY thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29; WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35; WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36; WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38

So we can see that the scriptures alone say that "BELIEVERS" can depart the faith and there are consequences for doing so. This is why it is written only those who "ENDURE TEMPTATION TO THE END" reveice everlasting life *JAMES 1:12.

All the above are WARNINGS to "BELIEVERS" not to depart and fall away from the faith. That is why it is written in the scripture you quoted that We (BELIEVERS) are not of those who draw back (ONCE BELIEVERS THAT DRAW BACK) to perdition. There are only BELIEVERS (present tense) and UNBELIEVERS (present tense) there is not such thing as "TRUE BELIEVERS". Only those who "ENDURE TEMPTATION TO THE END" receive everlasting life *JAMES 1:12.

Thanks for sharing.

God bless.

 

[loDebar]

On this I'll disagree. Heb. 6 is about those who have tasted but not eaten. They are like Israelites who crossed the Red Sea, but not the Jordan.

nope, It is about maturity not again the Gospel . Christ is better than the Law. The Law was dependawnt upon man;s actions, Salvation is not

 

[Calminian]

Hi Calminian nice to meet you. Sounds like your name means you are a mixture of Calvinist and Arminian?

Likewise, nice to meet you.

To be honest, Calminian is an old handle I probably wouldn't choose today. All it does is make both sides suspicsous of me.

God's Word says that these people were "ONCE ENLIGHTENED" * HEBREWS 6:4; they tasted of the Heavenly gift; *HEBREWS 6:4; they were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4; they tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5; they tasted of the power of the world to come * HEBREWS 6:5; THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6; THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6; THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

Yes, and that's the real debate. Does enlightened mean saved (referring to a believer)? I don't believe it does. Jesus is the light of the world, who enlighten every man (John 1:9).

"That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world."​

Unless you believe everyone becomes a believer at one point, this is clearly not a salvation reference.

Jesus also made a clear distinction between enlightenment and belief in John 12:36.

"....While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”​

This passage makes it very clear that Jesus did not teach that enlightenment and belief were synonymous. His warning, rather, is to believe while you have enlightenment. His clear teaching is that we must respond to enlightenment with belief.

There is a similar concept excessed in the OT.

Jer. 13:16 Give glory to the LORD your God
Before He causes darkness,
And before your feet stumble
On the dark mountains,
And while you are looking for light,
He turns it into the shadow of death
And makes it dense darkness.​

 

[Calminian]

nope, It is about maturity not again the Gospel . Christ is better than the Law. The Law was dependawnt upon man;s actions, Salvation is not

But the author speaks in terms of salvation, not only maturity.

Heb. 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation....​

The implication is that the previous things accompanied enlightenment, but not necessarily salvation. The implication is "better things" accompany salvation.

I think you and the OP are both convinced that enlightenment means salvation (though you disagree on OSAS). But I think post #174 illuminates the problem with conflating these two terms.

 

[loDebar]

But the author speaks in terms of salvation, not only maturity.

Heb. 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation....​

The implication is that the previous things accompanied enlightenment, but not necessarily salvation. The implication is "better things" accompany salvation.

I think you and the OP are both convinced that enlightenment means salvation (though you disagree on OSAS). But I think post #174 illuminates the problem with conflating these two terms.

He says he is not going to address salvation, but maturity
Heb 6:3
And this will we do, if God permit.

And why is this?
Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Does and individual RE crucify Christ? NO

And to go on to maturity

Heb 6:9¶
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak

completion, maturity of believers, saved who do not need the Gospel again because they cannot crucify Jesus ever time one sins and Christ died for all sins

Mar 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

 

[3rdAngel]

Likewise, nice to meet you. To be honest, Calminian is an old handle I probably wouldn't choose today. All it does is make both sides suspicsous of me.

Hi again brother. I did not mean what I said as meaning I was suspicious of you. It was only mean't as an observation in regards to your user name and a part of a welcome for you. So do not think I was being suspicious.

Yes, and that's the real debate. Does enlightened mean saved (referring to a believer)? I don't believe it does. Jesus is the light of the world, who enlighten every man (John 1:9).

"That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world."​

Unless you believe everyone becomes a believer at one point, this is clearly not a salvation reference.

Jesus also made a clear distinction between enlightenment and belief in John 12:36.

"....While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”​

This passage makes it very clear that Jesus did not teach that enlightenment and belief were synonymous. His warning, rather, is to believe while you have enlightenment. His clear teaching is that we must respond to enlightenment with belief.

There is a similar concept excessed in the OT.

Jer. 13:16 Give glory to the LORD your God
Before He causes darkness,
And before your feet stumble
On the dark mountains,
And while you are looking for light,
He turns it into the shadow of death
And makes it dense darkness.​

Actually they were not saved because they departed the faith. The scriptures in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 here say they were "ONCE BELIEVERS"; BEING ONCE ENLIGHTENED" * HEBREWS 6:4; they tasted of the Heavenly gift; *HEBREWS 6:4; they were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4; they tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5; they tasted of the power of the world to come * HEBREWS 6:5; THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6; THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6; THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6. Then similar thoughts being expressed in HEBREWS 10:26-39 as shown above. They were "ONCE BELIEVERS" who had "DEPARTED THE FAITH" to beocme "UNBELIEVERS" so they were lost and not saved. There is no such term as "SAVED" no one received everlasting life until they "ENDURE TEMPTATION TO THE END" *JAMES 1:12. These people were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that did not "ENDURE TEMPTATION TO THE END.

God bless

 

[37818]

Little children who die to young to believe or follow God's word, @3rdAngel, do they perish in your view?

Romans 3:10-11.​

 

[3rdAngel]

Little children who die to young to believe or follow God's word, @3rdAngel, do they perish in your view?

Romans 3:10-11.​

What do the scriptures say in ACTS 17:30-31 and JAMES 4:17? What do you think the meaning is of these scriptures?

 

[robycop3]

Again, the KEY is "partaken of the HOLY SPIRIT". In the New Testament, we don't see the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself in any unsaved person. Thus, Heb. 6:4-6 is talking about a saved person who renounces his/her faith.