1689Dave
Well-Known Member
We freely choose for the reasons God provides for us to base our choices on. In this he is sovereign and we have free will.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Was God Wrathful before the Fall?
- Thread starter Mikey
- Start date
If that is true then God is a terrible judge of character. Genesis 1:31 God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
The Fall of Satan happened before the Fall of Adam!
Rockson
Active Member
Don't think it really matters one way or another but don't see anywhere in Genesis 1 where it even refers to the creation of the angels but seems only to refer to earthly creatures or things relative to the Earth.
So you don't understand the phrase "heavens and all that is in them" to mean the Heavens and all that is in them? Exodus 20:11 For in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them,
Not one iota of scripture to support that.
IMO, God placed Adam in the garden to provoke Satan to jealousy, and thus his subsequent fall.
No where does it say that angels are created in the image and likeness of God. So to a degree I would agree with kyredneck.
Satan saw this image and likeness in the human couple and became furiously jealous and questioned God's motive and that was his downfall.
Satan saw this image and likeness in the human couple and became furiously jealous and questioned God's motive and that was his downfall.
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38:4-7
What day did that, laying, take place? Who were the sons of God shouting for joy and what day were they shouting?
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezek 28:14,15
What day did the devil sin? What, anointed cherub, was perfect, until, iniquity (sin) was found in him? What, day, did that take place on?
What day did that, laying, take place? Who were the sons of God shouting for joy and what day were they shouting?
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezek 28:14,15
What day did the devil sin? What, anointed cherub, was perfect, until, iniquity (sin) was found in him? What, day, did that take place on?
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
Was Adam, absolutely necessary, for the manifestation of the Son of God, in order that the works of the devil, could be destroyed?
Exactly how was God going to destroy the works of the devil? What is the last enemy to be destroyed? Does it have anything to do with the devil?
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is (the) death. 1 Cor 15:26
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through (the) death he might destroy him that had the power of (the) death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14
Was Adam, absolutely necessary, for the manifestation of the Son of God, in order that the works of the devil, could be destroyed?
Exactly how was God going to destroy the works of the devil? What is the last enemy to be destroyed? Does it have anything to do with the devil?
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is (the) death. 1 Cor 15:26
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through (the) death he might destroy him that had the power of (the) death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14
Rockson
Active Member
Well no still can't say I can totally agree with you. Quite possible God was still talking about the physical order of things.....the atmospheric heaven the first heaven and the the second heaven.....the heaven where all the stars and planets reside. I consider the third heaven a different order of existence, the Spirit or the spiritual realm. You could be right that Satan's fall happened after physical creation but I'm not sure scripture demands that interpretation.
Nope. שָׁמַיִם - shaamayim - plural.
The ‘motif’ from scripture that I base my opinion on is the ‘constant’ of jealousy/envy/enmity from those that were first towards those that were second. A few examples:
Cain the firstborn/Abel the second born
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And Jehovah had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And Jehovah said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? Gen 4
(see Pink on Cain & Abel)
Ishmael firstborn/Isaac second born
8 And the child grew, and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned.
9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne unto Abraham, mocking. Gen 21
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Gal 4
Essau firstborn/Jacob second born
41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him. And Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand. Then will I slay my brother Jacob. Gen 27
Saul the first king/David the second king
7 And the women sang one to another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, And David his ten thousands.
8 And Saul was very wroth, and this saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom?
9 And Saul eyed David from that day and forward. 1 Sam 18
To quote Brother @tyndale1946:
“…Jealousy exhibited from the firstborn to the younger is a recurring theme in the scriptures foretelling/portraying the enmity between the Jews and Christ and His infant church…”
https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/who-was-the-elder-son.99738/#post-2229115
…a few more examples on this ‘motif’ of jealousy that runs throughout the scriptures:
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32
19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you.
20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.
21 But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. Ro 10
44 And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed. Acts 13
17 When therefore they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?
18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him up. Mt 27
1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them,
2 being sore troubled because they taught the people, and proclaimed in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. Acts 4
16 And there also came together the multitudes from the cities round about Jerusalem, bring sick folk, and them that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
17 But the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy, Acts 5
5 But the Jews, being moved with jealousy, took unto them certain vile fellows of the rabble, and gathering a crowd, set the city on an uproar; and assaulting the house of Jason, they sought to bring them forth to the people. Acts 17
I believe God inserted Adam into the garden and gave him dominion over the earth knowing full well that it would provoke Satan to jealousy. Thus the story of our redemption begins.
Last edited:
Yes it is a sad truth, thankfulness is often replaced with envy, jealousy and anger.
Luke 15
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never
gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Luke 15
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never
gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
The elder angry because of the younger! Firstborn vs second born! Concerning the firstborn/second born, it is consistent throughout the scriptures that it's actually the second born that obtains the favor of God, not the firstborn,
It was not Cain's sacrifice that God had respect for, but it was Abel's; 'Cain was of the evil one, and slew his brother....
Shem was the elder brother of Japheth, but, 'God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem...' [Gen 10:21 ASV & 9:27]
It was Ishmael, the firstborn, that was born after the flesh, and he persecuted Isaac, the second born, that was born after the Spirit. Isaac was the child of promise; Ishmael was cast out. [Gal 4:29]
It was said of Esau and Jacob, 'The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' [Ro 9:12,13]
It was not Leah his first wife that Jacob loved, but it was Rachel his second wife. [Gen 29:30,31]
It was Ephraim the younger that Jacob blessed over his older brother Mannassah and that in spite of Joseph's objections. [Gen 48:13-20]
It was not the first generation of the exodus that entered into the rest of the promised land, it was the second generation; 'But your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have rejected.' [Nu 14:31]
It was not Saul the first king of Israel that would do all of God's will, but it was the second king David that was a man after His heart; '...Saul the son of Kish...when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who shall do all My will.' [Acts 13:21,22]
It was not the first covenant of the law ( I desire mercy, and not sacrifice) that God had pleasure in, but it was the second covenant of grace; '....a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.' [Heb 8:6,7]
Consider 'the first man Adam' vs. 'the last Adam, ' ... that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.' [1 Cor 15:45-47]
Last edited:
Do you equate then the fall of Satan to when God cursed him in Genesis?
Well, kinda, it was perhaps "the last straw".
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Possibly he said in his heart "Why not me? Why can't I be in His likeness? Why only these two!?"
Satan wanted to be as God Himself, way above Adam and Eve !