Was Jesus A Man Before the Incarnation?

According to who?

We see PROOF that He did! Remember Shadrack, Meeshak and Abednego? Who was standing in the fire with them? Who visited Abram? Who wrestled with Jacob?

 

No I'm not.

 

I may be wrong but I believe DeeJay was saying that both Mormons and yourself are orthodox when it comes to Christological incarnation.

I believe DeeJay was saying that Mormons, but not youself, are unorthodox when it comes to human incarnation.

 

This is a wrong view. I understand why you may say this, but it is my feeling this is wrong. Jesus had only one earthy body and was born to Mary in Bethlehem.

john 1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

gal 4
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

heb 10
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me

john 6
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me

The Son God has indeed been eternal preexistence.

john 1
30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

micah 5
2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting

kinda implied here....isaiah 9
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Now one passage pulls it all together for us...

col 1

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:15-17 is said to be a hymn.

In vs. 15 the pre-existent Christ is "eikon tou theou tou aoratou" - the express image of the invisible God. In Christ the invisible God became visible to man. Notice this, Paul describes Christ as the prototokos - the firstborn. in verse 16 the pre-eminence of Christ is the point of prototokos.

J. B. Lightfoot(17) well comments:

After reading Lightfoot...read Hebs 1.

The Incarnation is necessary to see in the right light because of the virgin birth. The body of Jesus did not come from any other then a virgin. (seed of man) To go beyond this would remove our Lords right to rule some day on the throne of David. Also, with no virgin birth, this would remove His saving power on the cross. I do not mean to make this a C/A debate, so no more needs to be said on this.

This leaves you with 2 choices.

1) Mary was yet not born, making the virgin birth not able
2) Mary is also eternal preexistence

Mormon doctrine has been mis-stated too. Better...it has been understated. Mormon teaching is .... "This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund ... they said that "man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents ..." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.516).

This Mormon doctrine is said of all men, not just Jesus. This is pegan new age.


Back to Mary. Christ came though the seed of Man. That was Jesus. Mary was the choosen mother to carry his birth. Jesus body was made in the very womb of Mary. Where you take it from here depends on how you view Mary.



In Christ...James

 

Thanks for the post. Dr. Nettles would be ashamed to say I was in his history class

I guess I was tracing out the implications of the Nicean creed. I see now that it was over His divinity. But as I look at the debate over His divinity, an implication of that, as far as I understand it, would be that he wasn't human before the incarnation. Right? (I guess in this context it doesn't matter as much since the OP might have been misunderstood)

 

spirit beings is a Mormon doctrine . . .

I just gotta ask: Are ya'll discussing mormon or Christian doctrine?

I the Bible the being that I see described as a spirit is God or the Holy Spirit.

Angels are created and so is man.

 

Jarth, Am I reading you right in assuming Mary as a woman of child bearing age WAS NOT truly a virgin at conception? It is the only obvious answer as Mary is NOT God and therefore in pre-existence with God.

Please clarify, for if you are saying that - I will stand in that debate!

 

Marcia

I apologise. I did not mean it that way. I was not trying to say you had mormon beliefs. I was trying to say that, In this case, Mormons agreed with you. It was not an insult to your or saying that you are wrong just that bill had it wrong on what mormons believe.

Mormons agree with several Christian beliefs. Especaly on moral issues. I did not mean it to be offencive, and I should have worded it differently.

I also did point out that they take it to far and I assumed that you would not agree with them on that.

Sorry.

 

Exactly, thank you

 

Marcia, Webdog

I think you both are useing different definitions and probably could agree if you clearly defined the words you are useing. I wish you would because you both are confusing me to no end.

Web I think you are saying that Jesus took a form that looked human before the incarnation but only became human after he was born from Mary? That form he took was like the perfict body He has after the reserection that He assended with?

Marcia do you agree that Jesus had any form before the incarnation or was he invisable Spirit like the Father?

 

The point being............

Jesus was born of the seed of a woman.
Mary was His VIRGIN mother.
The Son of God is eternal preexistence
Mary is finite.
Mary was not around "in the beginning" for the Body of Christ to be born.

You can draw your own conclusions as to what this means.


In Christ...James

 

I apologize for this getting twisted out of shape.My comment was not directed at Marcias beliefs but toward the poster on the other thread she was referring to.Which is why I asked marcia to ask her friend(on the other thread)who he/she thought Jesus really is.

 

Jarth, So you hold that Jesus mother at His BIRTH was a virgin. Correct or not?

That was all I wanted to clarify. :wavey:

I hold He was BORN of a VIRGIN.

As to His celestial body, constant or temporal (as in only when needed) >>>EDIT<<< is silly to condend with as long as someone is not saying Jesus is a created being in any sense of meaning.

 

He was conceived was he not? Even if it were immaculate it was still conception.