webdog said:
Marcia, you are totally misrepresenting what I'm trying to say. I believe Jesus had a body prior to becoming human. What that body consists of, I can only guess it's maybe the same body He ascended to Heaven with. We see where The Angel of God (different than "an" angel of God) walked, ate, wrestled, etc. God is Spirit...so who was The Angel of God (deity)? To deny that is to deny that Christ was not the third member of the Godhead...and He exists now different than He existed prior to coming to earth.
This is a wrong view. I understand why you may say this, but it is my feeling this is wrong. Jesus had only one earthy body and was born to Mary in Bethlehem.
john 1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
gal 4
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
heb 10
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me
john 6
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me
The Son God has indeed been eternal preexistence.
john 1
30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
micah 5
2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting
kinda implied here....isaiah 9
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Now one passage pulls it all together for us...
col 1
15Who is the
image of the invisible God, the
firstborn of every creature:
16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him:
17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Colossians 1:15-17 is said to be a hymn.
In vs. 15 the pre-existent Christ is "eikon tou theou tou aoratou" - the express image of the invisible God. In Christ the invisible God became visible to man. Notice this, Paul describes Christ as the prototokos - the firstborn. in verse 16 the pre-eminence of Christ is the point of prototokos.
J. B. Lightfoot(17) well comments:
All the laws and purposes which guide the creation and government of the Universe reside in Him, the Eternal Word, as their meeting-point. The Apostolic doctrine of the Logos teaches us to regard the Eternal Word as holding the same relation to the Universe which the Incarnate Christ holds to the Church. He is the source of its life, the centre of all its developments, the mainspring of all its motions.... The Judeo-Alexandrian teachers represented the Logos, which in their view was nothing more than the Divine mind energizing, as the topos where the eternal ideas...have their abode.... The Apostolic teaching is an enlargement of this conception, inasmuch as the Logos is no longer a philosophical abstraction but a Divine Person....
After reading Lightfoot...read Hebs 1.
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high
The Incarnation is necessary to see in the right light because of the virgin birth. The body of Jesus did not come from any other then a virgin. (seed of man) To go beyond this would remove our Lords right to rule some day on the throne of David. Also, with no virgin birth, this would remove His saving power on the cross. I do not mean to make this a C/A debate, so no more needs to be said on this.
This leaves you with 2 choices.
1) Mary was yet not born, making the virgin birth not able
2) Mary is also eternal preexistence
Mormon doctrine has been mis-stated too. Better...it has been
understated. Mormon teaching is ....
"This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund ... they said that "man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents ..." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.516).
This Mormon doctrine is said of all men, not just Jesus. This is pegan new age.
Back to Mary. Christ came though the seed of Man. That was Jesus. Mary was the choosen mother to carry his birth. Jesus
body was made in the very womb of Mary. Where you take it from here depends on how you view Mary.
In Christ...James
