Was Jesus A Man Before the Incarnation?

[DeeJay]

Well, what does the Bible say? It does not say Jesus had a form before the incarnation. There are statements that we think refer to appearances of Jesus in the OT, which, if they were Jesus, were Jesus appearing in a human-like form, but that does not mean he was a man then, as he was in the incarnation.

I do not think, in whatever form Jesus may have appeared in in the OT, that Jesus had a human nature then or was a man at that time. There is no indication Jesus had a human nature before the incarnation, and that is really what is at issue here.

I think I agree with all of the above. I think that is what Webdog was saying also. I do not think he was saying Jesus had a human nature before the incarnation, just took human form. Appearing in human-like form is a good way to word it.

 

[Marcia]

I think I agree with all of the above. I think that is what Webdog was saying also. I do not think he was saying Jesus had a human nature before the incarnation, just took human form. Appearing in human-like form is a good way to word it.

Then what does this mean?

It is said that God is 100% God and 100% Man. How? He only exists like that now, and 3000 years ago He existed as something else?

 

[Marcia]

What is this statement saying? Is it not saying that Jesus has always been man?

How can you believe that Jesus has not always been God / Man? We see numerous times in the OT where The Angel of the Lord appeared in human form...ate...walked. He was Deity, and since God the Father is Spirit...and the Holy Spirit is obviously Spirit, who would The Angel of God have been? You tread slippery ground to state that how Christ exists now, He has not always existed.

When I said this:

Jesus became fully man. He added a human nature and human body when he incarnated

He said this:

Jesus became hu-man. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Your view doesn't support this.

He seems to be saying Jesus was not human but was a man before the incarnation. I don't see the difference, and I disagree that Jesus was a man before the incarnation.

Do you see the issue now?

 

[DeeJay]

What is this statement saying? Is it not saying that Jesus has always been man?


He seems to be saying Jesus was not human but was a man before the incarnation. I don't see the difference, and I disagree that Jesus was a man before the incarnation.

Do you see the issue now?

I do, I think it may be just the way webdog worded somethings. I am curious and will wait for webdog to clearify his post or to further explain his stand.

I defenantly see your concern with

How can you believe that Jesus has not always been God / Man? We see numerous times in the OT where The Angel of the Lord appeared in human form...ate...walked. He was Deity, and since God the Father is Spirit...and the Holy Spirit is obviously Spirit, who would The Angel of God have been? You tread slippery ground to state that how Christ exists now, He has not always existed

.

But I wonder if when he says man he is saying human-like form. And he is saying human to diferentiate between

Human like form and human.

In other words you are saying, human-like form before incarnation and Human after incarnation

Web is saying man before incarnation and human after incarnation.

But you are meaning the same thing useing different words.

I dont know, will have to wait on webdog.

 

[Atonement]

Alot of people like to put limitations on God. Does not the Bible say we could entertaine ourself with angels unaware?

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

If you could be visted by angels and not even know about it. I'm sure our Lord can clothe Himself in any manner possible. Also in Hebrews it cleary states that Jesus took on the seed of Abraham..


Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on Him the nature of angels; but he took on Him the seed of Abraham.

Jesus our Lord and King left His glory and riches in Heaven to come down here poor and the servant of all to be made into the image of mankind. To be wounded for our transgressions. I would advise you to read Isiah Chapter 53..

 

[Marcia]

Atonement, your post does not have anything to do with what we are talking about. The issue is: Was Jesus a man before the incarnation?

Did you read the whole thread from page 1?

 

[Atonement]

I read the entire thread and the question asked:

Was Jesus a man before the incarnation?

Did not God say "Let us make man in our image" What image could that possibly be? Should not the correct question be asked was Jesus flesh and blood before the incarnation? The term man is too general, to open. So you have received a broad of open ended answers. I would recommend narrowing it down to get a more direct answer.

 

[Marcia]

I read the entire thread and the question asked:

Was Jesus a man before the incarnation?

Did not God say "Let us make man in our image" What image could that possibly be? Should not the correct question be asked was Jesus flesh and blood before the incarnation? The term man is too general, to open. So you have received a broad of open ended answers. I would recommend narrowing it down to get a more direct answer.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm waiting on Webdog to clarify his statements. That's mainly how this thread started (clarifying statements made on another thread).

I don't think, though, that being made in God's image has anything to do with the appearance of God, who is invisible (acc. to the bible). It has to do with the fact that we were created with a will, intelligence, language, a sense of morality, and the ability to be aware of and to communicate with God.

 

[Atonement]

I don't think, though, that being made in God's image has anything to do with the appearance of God, who is invisible (acc. to the bible). It has to do with the fact that we were created with a will, intelligence, language, a sense of morality, and the ability to be aware of and to communicate with God.

Well that is only one's opinion, I will have to ask one to prove that before I consider? I know we were created with all the attributes you mentioned of course, but to say it has nothing to do with the appearence of God is just not Bibical. Look at the Book of Revelation and how it speaks of Jesus' apperance, is it not that of a man? Just a glorified state?

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

 

[Marcia]

Well that is only one's opinion, I will have to ask one to prove that before I consider? I know we were created with all the attributes you mentioned of course, but to say it has nothing to do with the appearence of God is just not Bibical

How is it not Biblical? The Bible says no one has seen God. It says God is invisible.

Look at the Book of Revelation and how it speaks of Jesus' apperance, is it not that of a man? Just a glorified state?

But Revelation is after the incarnation.

Are you trying to say God the Father looks like a man? Or that Jesus was a man before the incarnation? The 2nd statement is the issue here.

 

[Brandon C. Jones]

Was Adam made in Jesus' image or God's image-who is a Spirit? Atonement, I would recommend looking into some commentaries on Genesis or systematic theologies that discuss the image of God in man. You will see that Marcia need not prove her statements, church history and orthodox theology are on her side (sans Eastern Orthodoxy, but only in that they split the meanings of image and likeness which leads to their view of theosis, however, they do not support the other view involved in this thread).

BJ

 

[Atonement]

One Verse:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

He is without change, why would He change His apperance? That would be a Bibical error of the Word. I can not accept that.

 

[Marcia]

One Verse:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

He is without change, why would He change His apperance? That would be a Bibical error of the Word. I can not accept that.

Are you saying that Jesus was a physical man and had a physical body before the incarnation?

 

[Atonement]

You will see that Marcia need not prove her statements, church history and orthodox theology are on her side BJ

But she does need to prove herself, because I'm asking her to, and the verse I quoted states to prove all things. And the WORD OF GOD is on my side.......

 

[Atonement]

Are you saying that Jesus was a physical man and had a physical body before the incarnation?

Not at all...

 

[Marcia]

Not at all...

Well, what you are saying then? You just said Jesus never changes. That would mean he had a body before, right? That seems to be what you are saying. I'm confused about your position.

 

[Atonement]

Well, what you are saying then? You just said Jesus never changes. That would mean he had a body before, right? That seems to be what you are saying. I'm confused about your position.

Marcia, don't be confused honey, you just have not got my position because I never gave you one. I rather not debate over something so superficial, if it does not edify my spiritual walk with the Lord, or draw me closer to Him. Then I ask myself "really, what's the point?" This whole time I been feeling out your position. And questing it like a good stuart should..

 

[Marcia]

So you're not going to answer, huh?

I'm not confused at all, except by your statements, which seem contradictory.

Keep in mind, this is the debate section. We have fellowship sections if you don't like it here. :smilewinkgrin:

My position is entirely biblical: Jesus was not man before the incarnation. He may have appeared to be a man or angel in the OT, but he was not a man because he had not incarnated. He entered and became a participant in history and humanity in the incarnation. This is what makes the incarnation so unique and extraordinary.

 

[Atonement]

My statements do not contradict, Jesus does not change, has not changed, will never change. I have proven that with Scripture, you come here with opinions and when asked to prove it, you avoid by directing another question at me, this is not about me or what my position is, it's about you and your position, let's not loose focus here.. There is not a single scripture you can quote from that states God's body is not that of a man before the Birth. It's not there this is why I asked you to prove it.

We know that there is 16 dimensions in which we live in, example of this is when Jesus' (resurrected body) went through walls unto His disciples, this is a 16th dimension. Who's to say God's body is not an invisible one, but when He chooses He can allow others to see it, as He did with Moses when He told Moses to just look at his back side as He passed by?

Though I know this is may not be true because I know the Word of God..

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I do know my position very well....

 

[Marcia]

My statements do not contradict, Jesus does not change, has not changed, will never change. I have proven that with Scripture, you come here with opinions and when asked to prove it, you avoid by directing another question at me, this is not about me or what my position is, it's about you and your position, let's not loose focus here.. There is not a single scripture you can quote from that states God's body is not that of a man before the Birth. It's not there this is why I asked you to prove it.

You are saying God has a body? Do you mean God the Father? Or do you mean Jesus had a body before the incarnation?

We know that there is 16 dimensions in which we live in, example of this is when Jesus' (resurrected body) went through walls unto His disciples, this is a 16th dimension.

16 dimensions? Where is that in the Bible?

BTW, the Bible does not say Jesus went through a wall. It says he appeared in the room that had a locked door. How do you know he didn't just supernaturally unlock it?

I'm interested in hearing where you get the 16 dimensions from the Bible.

Who's to say God's body is not an invisible one, but when He chooses He can allow others to see it, as He did with Moses when He told Moses to just look at his back side as He passed by?

The Bible says God is invisible!

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Rom 1.20

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Col 1.15

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. 1 Tim 1.17

God's "backside" is an anthorpomorphism. There are also passages that speak of God's wings, but we know he doesn't have wings. Mormons use those passages (about God's hands and face, etc.) to say he has a body.

Marcia, don't be confused honey,

BTW, I'm not your "honey" so please refrain from using that term.