Was Jesus a Pacifist?

[shodan]

Context, Context, Context

Jesus told his disciples to take swords with them. In fact, he told them if they didn't have one to buy one.

Do you actually read a Bible passage before proof-texting? Too many Christians do not.


Regarding the swords, Jesus used hyperbole--sell an essential garment and buy a sword.

To "two swords" he replied, "enough." etc. https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/06/17/two-swords-enough/

 

[shodan]

And Christians have the liberty to be pacifists.

But the question is, does the Bible instruct us to be pacifists, either by command or by example.

Yes, by both command and example. https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/romans-13-in-context-sword-pacifism/

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Rebel, I know you didn't respond to my post, but thank you for responding to other posts in this thread, particularly to Curtis' posts.

Now I know ahead of time not to waste my time with you and to just go ahead and put you on ignore.

Do you actually read a Bible passage before proof-texting? Too many Christians do not.

Regarding the swords, Jesus used hyperbole--if you cannot afford a sword, sell an essential garment and buy a sword.

How is that hyperbole?

To "two swords" he replied, "enough." etc.

Correct. He sent them out in teams of two. How many swords do two men need?

Yes, by both command and example.

OK. Show us from scripture where we're to be pacifists.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Do you actually read a Bible passage before proof-texting? Too many Christians do not.

You are right. A lot of Christians don't consider entire passages. You needn't worry me in that regard. I am fanatical about context. It drives me crazy when people take selected verses out of context and do not bother to take the whole text in regard.

Jesus was not being hyperbolic. He was being literal. Let me explain why I believe this.

What is the context of Jesus saying this? It's the Last Supper.

Luke 22:7-38 Jesus gives very explicit details and literal details during this meal from Luke's perspective.

• (verses 7-13) -He starts with a very literal and explicit detail (who to find, the exact words to say) in how the disciples are to find the particular room that they will share this meal in.
• (verses 14-18) - Jesus explains why they are there with Him.
• (verses 19-20) - Jesus explains the meaning of the bread and the cup in relation to his body. He opens up the meaning of a new covenant.
• (verses 21-23) - He reveals to them that one of them is a betrayer.
• (verses 24-30) - Jesus gives them a fuller and greater understanding of what it means to BE great on this earth and that greatness, true greatness, awaits in His spiritual kingdom.
• (verses 31-34) - Jesus and Peter have a talk about satan's desire to destroy Peter and Peter's denial of Jesus and Peter's future leadership. Nothing hyperbolic in any of that.

So on heels of Jesus' explicit caveat to Peter about his upcoming literal trials, he gives ALL of his disciples some advice.

Here's my paraphrasing of verses 35-38.

"Do you remember when I sent you out before ..... with no money, no backpack, no extra shoes .... nothing? Were you in want of ANYTHING?

They said 'No'.

Why did Jesus send them out before with absolutely nothing? Because they were all received - for the most part - in peace and were treated hospitably and with manners and kindness. Jesus did warn of those who would reject their message and He told them just to shake the dust from their feet and leave. No one was in danger of violence or harm. Just an occasional rejection.

"Now, I must tell you to TAKE money and a backpack. And take a sword. If you don't have one - buy one. The things concerning me that aren't pleasant must take place.

They said, 'Look, here are a couple of swords.' and Jesus said, 'That's enough'"

What these men will be facing NOW is not the mere rejection, but hostility. It's about to get bad. Whether Jesus meant "two swords are sufficient" or whether He meant "That's enough of this talk", neither negate the fact that He told them explicitly and literally to be prepared: monetarily, amassingly , and defensively.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

And as I said, you either should learn to read or stop deliberately lying.

Here is my exact quote; it shows that what you have claimed I said is not what I said: "Do some of you really think God and Jesus are as bloodthirsty as you seem to picture them?"

For the record, I never stated my exact views on the matter, or whether or not I myself am a pacifist. I had hoped we could discuss the various passages in a civil and reasonable way and share our conclusions. I suppose that was not a realistic hope on my part. I think I'll ask for the thread to be closed.

LOL. When you said "bloodthirsty", you DID state your exact views on the matter.

Now you want the thread closed.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

That is a lesson I learned the hard way. If not for the kindness of Dr. Bob, I would not be here. This time a couple of years ago, my total focus had grown into getting back at folks instead of sticking to the issues. Anyway, while away from this forum, I joined a slightly larger forum that exposes false doctrine and teachers, like Kenneth Copeland for example. I was chosen as an admin. It kind of reinforced the lesson I had learned here. In that forum, a personal attack gets one warning then what we call "the boot." Thank you for that post. I really appreciate it.

Would that be the FFF ?

 

[shodan]

Rebel, I know you didn't respond to my post, but thank you for responding to other posts in this thread, particularly to Curtis' posts.

Now I know ahead of time not to waste my time with you and to just go ahead and put you on ignore.



How is that hyperbole?



Correct. He sent them out in teams of two. How many swords do two men need?





OK. Show us from scripture where we're to be pacifists.

It is obvious you did not sit down and carefully read that text in the Bible nor did you read the linked article which explains it, quoting standard reference works. Too many Christians think it is all about venting one's opinion and they never do any homework. Our kids would flunk out of school if they followed this example.

 

[The American Dream]

Would that be the FFF ?

No, it is a forum that exposes false doctrine and teachers. Our main room is called Wolves in Sheep's Clothing: the Doctrine of Demons. We have about 20000 members. Then we have smaller rooms, one for the charismatic movement, one for Islam, one for LDS and JWs, and so forth. TBN is one of our favorite subjects. We are mostly Baptist and Presbyterian, but have a few of all Christian faiths. One thing the forum does not allow is KJVO.

 

[shodan]

Here's my paraphrasing of verses 35-38.



"Now, I must tell you to TAKE money and a backpack. And take a sword. If you don't have one - buy one. The things concerning me that aren't pleasant must take place.


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Using the Thomas Jefferson method? Cut out what does not fit with your views?

Here is the actual text: “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. "

Yes, selling an essential garment to buy a sword is hyperbole. (See dictionary)

Whether you take "enough" as two swords being sufficient to fulfill the prophecy cited, or (most likely) as a rebuke to the disciples for (again) not understanding Jesus, it is obvious that Jesus did not literally mean for all the disciples to buy a sword.

See standard reference works cited: https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/06/17/two-swords-enough/

 

[JohnDeereFan]

It is obvious you did not sit down and carefully read that text in the Bible nor did you read the linked article which explains it, quoting standard reference works. Too many Christians think it is all about venting one's opinion and they never do any homework. Our kids would flunk out of school if they followed this example.

In other words, you can't answer the question. All you can do is make childish personal attacks.

Good to know. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Using the Thomas Jefferson method? Cut out what does not fit with your views?

What?? I told you I was paraphrasing. Jesus said buy a sword. And yes, He did say, "if needs be, sell your cloak to do so."

That's not hyperbole. Hyperbole is an exaggeration that is not literal.

I think because He was being very literal - for the entire Last Supper portrayed by Luke.

The protection of a cloak wasn't going to do them much good. I would say that Jesus' telling them to sell the cloak if necessary only reinforces what I was trying to say.

Yes, I read the blog you posted. It's just another person's opinion.

 

[Sapper Woody]

First, we need to get a definition out of the way. From the beginning of the thread, the word "Pacifist" was used incorrectly, or, at least not in the common usage.

By pacifism, I mean opposition to war, killing, or doing someone physical harm, on moral and religious grounds

While this is an acceptable definition, most dictionaries (as provided by a quick Google search) use the common definition, which say that a pacifist is one who believes that war is unjustifiable. The common definition extends to those who believe that they should not respond violently in any way, no matter the circumstance. This belief is held by a few on this board.

Your quote, Rebel, isn't quite clear. Are you asking if Jesus was against all war and violence, or only aggressive acts?

Regarding the swords, Jesus used hyperbole--sell an essential garment and buy a sword.

Without trying to insult your intelligence, you don't seem to understand what hyperbole is. It is impossible that Jesus was using hyperbole here. Hyperbole is an exaggeration in order to make a point. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hyperbole "If I've told you once, I've told you a million times..." "I ate a ton of candy" "I could eat a horse". These are examples of hyperbole. It has absolutely nothing to do with what Jesus was saying, even if you don't think what he meant was to be taken literally.

If Jesus was making a point here, and not being literal, then he would have been using sarcasm or irony. But not hyperbole.

Thirdly, I can't get over the fact that someone with the screen name "shodan" would have a pacifist stance. It's laughable at the very least.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Jesus was for peace and would be a pacifist today, certainly he would not support corporations becoming rich through war.

"Resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Mt. 5:39)
"Remind the Christians to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing meekness to all men." (Titus 3:2)
"Follow Peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)
The servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves." (2 Timothy 2:24-25)
"Do all things without murmurrings and disputings, that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God without rebuke in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation." (Philipians 2:14:15)
Jesus came "to guide our feet into the way of Peace." (Luke 1:79)
Whatever you do to another it is as tho you were doing it to Jesus for he said:"In as much as ye have done it into one of the least of these, my brothers, ye have done it unto me." (Matthew 25:40)
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother" (1John 3:10)
"He that doeth good is of God, but he that doeth evil hath not seen God." (3John 1.11)
"He that kills with the sword, must be killed with the sword." (Revelation 13:10)
Forgive "one another if any man have a quarrel with any." (Colossians 3:13)
If anyone steals from you "take it joyfully" (Hebrews 10:34)
Even if you are unjustly enslaved or imprisoned, you do not resist but seek to convert your Jailers as St. Paul did. (Philippians 4:22)
"Be diligent that you may be found in Peace." (2 Peter 3:14)
But doesn't the Bible say we are to obey the Government? Yes, in all things which are not contrary to the Gospel, but if Jesus says live in peace and the governments says go to war, then "We ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29)
The Fruit of the Spirit is Peace...Love...Gentleness...Meekness" (Galatians 5:22)
"Walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of Peace." (Ephesians 4:1-3)
Peace is the Gospel . This is the doctrine of Christ. "Whosoever transgresses and abides not in the Doctrine of Christ hath not God." (2John 2:1)
"The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace." (James 3:18)
"Whosoever compells you to go a mile with him, go with him twain." (Mt.5:41)
"When they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another" (Matthew 10:32)
This world is not your home. "You are citizens of heaven." (Philippians 3:20)
"I say unto you love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which desoitefully use and persecute you, that you may be children of your father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:44-45)
"Behold I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye therefore as wise a serpents, and as harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:15)
"Have peace with one another." Romans 9:50)
"Let us follow after the things that make for peace." (Romans 14:19)
"God hath called us unto Peace." (1 Corinthians 7:15)
"Live in peace." (2 Corinthians 13:11)
Jesus mission was to "Preach Peace." (Acts 10:36)
Jesus came and "preached peace." (Ephesians 2:17)
"Seek Peace and ensue it." (1Peter 1:3)
"As you would that men would do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:31)
"We are counted as sheep for the slaughter." (Romans 8:36)
"Blessed are the Peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God." (Matthew 5:19)
"He hath given us the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Corinthians 5:18)
"As far as your responsibility goes, live at peace with all men." (Romans 12:18 Phillips translation)
"On earth peace, good will towards men." (Luke 2:14)
"If any man will sue thee at the law to take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also." (Matthew 5:40)
"Ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, see that ye be not troubled." (Matthew 24:8)
"My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should be delivered of the Jews." (John 18:36)
"Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword, shall perish with the sword." (Matthew 26:52)
"Bless them that persecute you: bless and curse not." (Romans 12:14)
"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:20)
"Recompense no man evil for evil." (Romans 12.:7)
"Being reviled, we bless . Being persecuted we suffer it. Being defamed, we entreat." (1Corinthians 4:12-13)
"Dearly Beloved, avenge not yourselves but rather give place unto wrath, for it is written Vengeance is mine, I will repay saith the Lord." (Romans 12:19)
"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him, if he thirst, give him drink." (Romans 12:9)
"See that none render evil for evil, or railing for railing, but contrariwise blessing." (1 Peter3:9)
God's primary title in the New Testament is The God of Peace. It is used six times (Rom. 15:33, Heb. 13:20, Phil. 4:9, Rom. 16:20, 1 Thess. 5:3, 2 Thess. 3:16)
"Blessed are the Meek for they shall inherit the earth." (Mt.5.5)
"God is not the author of confusion, but of Peace." (1Cor.14:33)
"How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of them that preach The Gospel of Peace." (Rom.10:15)
"Finally Brethern, farewell, be perfect. Be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace and the God of Love and Peace shall be with you." (2 Cor.13.11)

 

[Scarlett O.]

Jesus was for peace and would be a pacifist today, certainly he would not support corporations becoming rich through war.

No, Jesus would not support corporations becoming rich through unnecessary wars.

But, this isn't what we are talking about.

Jesus called for his disciples to buy swords if necessary. Jesus made a whip out of cords and used it.

If you would like to take all those verses one by one, we can look and see if they call for pacifism.

"Turn the other cheek" does not.

"Turn the other cheek" in the context of the Sermon on the Mount is not calling for no war or no protection of one's person or family.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Some of the folks who are quoting early Christians concerning pacifism should read "Just War".

August of Hippo had his theological errors, but he was no pacifist.
"They who have waged war in obedience to the divine command, or in conformity with His laws, have represented in their persons the public justice or the wisdom of government, and in this capacity have put to death wicked men; such persons have by no means violated the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill."


From
City of God
Augustine
Schaff, Philip

 

[kyredneck]

"Thou shalt not kill" is referring to the shedding of innocent blood.

 

[Rebel]

, Your quote, Rebel, isn't quite clear. Are you asking if Jesus was against all war and violence, or only aggressive acts?

I was mainly thinking of killing in war. However, since the discussion has included pacifism in a broader sense, I wouldn't want to restrict it to what I was at first thinking because I believe the discussion can be constructive, if we can keep the hostility out of it.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Since you were the one who first introduced hyperbole to this discussion, I think you're belly-aching about "hostile" posts is disingenuous. Discuss it or not, but please stop using what you view as other's bad attitudes as an excuse to not participate.

 

[Rebel]

Since you were the one who first introduced hyperbole to this discussion, I think you're belly-aching about "hostile" posts is disingenuous. Discuss it or not, but please stop using what you view as other's bad attitudes as an excuse to not participate.

Hyperbole? Really? You continue to show that you lack comprehension skills, or that you're just dishonest. I have been participating, and your posting such drivel shows that you are not honest. Everyone can see how you've responded to me and what the moderators have done to your posts. So, you have not a leg to stand on.

You know, before I read your latest diarrhea of the mouth, I was considering reaching out to you by PM with a peace offering. But I can see there's no use in that. So please do continue with your stinking attitude. Heap those coals.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Please don't send me any PMs. I won't read them. And that should be "post", not "posts". More hyperbole. Diarrhea of the mouth. Yes, you seem to be willing to throw around mean words, but have a thin skin when it comes back to you. And I don't care how you think others view me. So please, report my posts if you want to, but patting yourself on the back about it ?

Rebel, you are the one who said our words made Christ appear "bloodthirsty".

Since you have done nothing but complain about what you see as "bad attitudes".

What have you to say about my "City of God" post ? or would you rather talk about people than the subject of the O/P ?