Was Jesus a Pacifist?

[Bro. Curtis]

If you tried to find the post you would. You only confirm what I posted earlier. You no longer want to talk about the subject, and are now focused on me. I called something you said stupid and you haven't let it go for what, four pages ? I have several on topic posts that not even you could find mean, or un-whatever.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

If this is the post you meant, then yes I read it: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2196861&postcount=55

My response: So? And why would I want it deleted?

Do you think the early Christians can be called pacifists in light of what August really said ? And I mean pacifists in the modern day sense. And I promise to be respectful if you will.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Added......

I don't think it's the case that early Christians were pacifists in the modern day sense and I cited the writing as evidence. August of Hippo would fight, if we are to believe his words.

 

[Rebel]

If you tried to find the post you would. You only confirm what I posted earlier. You no longer want to talk about the subject, and are now focused on me. I called something you said stupid and you haven't let it go for what, four pages ? I have several on topic posts that not even you could find mean, or un-whatever.

It would help if you would be truthful, but you are not.

Okay, let me edit this after reading your post that followed. Because of what you said, I am willing to try again with you.

 

[Rebel]

Do you think the early Christians can be called pacifists in light of what August really said ? And I mean pacifists in the modern day sense. And I promise to be respectful if you will.

I guess it depends by how you define "early". Most Christians were pacifists, until the time of Constantine.

 

[Rebel]

Added......

I don't think it's the case that early Christians were pacifists in the modern day sense and I cited the writing as evidence. August of Hippo would fight, if we are to believe his words.

What do you mean by "modern day sense"?

 

[Rebel]

Let me say, for those who think they have me figured out on this topic: My views are complex on some things, including this issue. I certainly think people have a right to self-defense.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

What do you mean by "modern day sense"?

The ones who say there is never any reason to use force, even in self defense. I have not been shown anything to make me think this was the stance of early Christians.

 

[Rebel]

The ones who say there is never any reason to use force, even in self defense. I have not been shown anything to make me think this was the stance of early Christians.

Okay, thanks for explaining.

I'm not sure what the early Christians' stance on self-defense would have been. I was originally thinking mainly about war when I posted the thread.

Even in those Asian religions who don't believe in doing anyone or anything harm, most still believe in self-defense.

And in the "peace churches" which have had pacifism as a doctrine, working as a policeman is usually accepted.

 

[RLBosley]

We aren't talking about war exclusively, we are talking self-defense.

I was talking about war. Talk of pacifism immediately gears the discussion towards war. But I believe that Jesus' teaching on non-violence apply to self-defense as well. Killing is not an option. The rest I'm not sure on.

And before you say it, Luke 22:36-38 is not supporting Christians arming themselves. Neither is 1 Timothy 5:8 supporting using violence to defend your family.

 

[RLBosley]

Added......

I don't think it's the case that early Christians were pacifists in the modern day sense and I cited the writing as evidence. August of Hippo would fight, if we are to believe his words.

I've heard that Augustine urged soldiers to repent of killing before the battle, though I am having difficulty finding a source for that. Regardless he was a early proponent of what we call Just War theory, though I don't think he articulated the points as clearly as they came to be known. I'm fine with Just War Theory as theory, the only problem is that there has never been a just war based on those standards.

As for other ECFs, it's pretty clear where they stood.

"[W]e who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,— our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage, —and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified" - Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho

“Hitherto I have served you as a soldier; allow me now to become a soldier to God. Let the man who is to serve you receive your donative. I am a soldier of Christ; it is not permissible for me to fight.”
- Martin of Tours (Not sure if he technically qualifies as ECF)

[W]e have learned, not only not to return blow for blow, nor to go to law with those who plunder and rob us, but to those who smite us on one side of the face to offer the other side also, and to those who take away our coat to give likewise our cloak" - Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians

(After quoting Matthew 5:44-45)"But among us you will find uneducated persons, and artisans, and old women, who, if they are unable in words to prove the benefit of our doctrine, yet by their deeds exhibit the benefit arising from their persuasion of its truth: they do not rehearse speeches, but exhibit good works; when struck, they do not strike again; when robbed, they do not go to law; they give to those that ask of them, and love their neighbors as themselves." - Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians

"[T]he Christian does no harm even to his foe...Hippias is put to death laying plots against the state: no Christian ever attempted such a thing in behalf of his brethren, even when persecution was scattering them abroad with every atrocity. But it will be said that some of us, too, depart from the rules of our discipline. In that case, however, we count them no longer Christians;" - Tertullian, Apology, ch 46

I can find many others.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I've heard that Augustine urged soldiers to repent of killing before the battle, though I am having difficulty finding a source for that. Regardless he was a early proponent of what we call Just War theory, though I don't think he articulated the points as clearly as they came to be known. I'm fine with Just War Theory as theory, the only problem is that there has never been a just war based on those standards.

The last statement could be debated.

As for other ECFs, it's pretty clear where they stood.

"[W]e who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,— our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage, —and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified" - Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho

“Hitherto I have served you as a soldier; allow me now to become a soldier to God. Let the man who is to serve you receive your donative. I am a soldier of Christ; it is not permissible for me to fight.”
- Martin of Tours (Not sure if he technically qualifies as ECF)

[W]e have learned, not only not to return blow for blow, nor to go to law with those who plunder and rob us, but to those who smite us on one side of the face to offer the other side also, and to those who take away our coat to give likewise our cloak" - Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians

(After quoting Matthew 5:44-45)"But among us you will find uneducated persons, and artisans, and old women, who, if they are unable in words to prove the benefit of our doctrine, yet by their deeds exhibit the benefit arising from their persuasion of its truth: they do not rehearse speeches, but exhibit good works; when struck, they do not strike again; when robbed, they do not go to law; they give to those that ask of them, and love their neighbors as themselves." - Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians

"[T]he Christian does no harm even to his foe...Hippias is put to death laying plots against the state: no Christian ever attempted such a thing in behalf of his brethren, even when persecution was scattering them abroad with every atrocity. But it will be said that some of us, too, depart from the rules of our discipline. In that case, however, we count them no longer Christians;" - Tertullian, Apology, ch 46

I can find many others.

I'm sure you could. The quote I put up from "City of God" tells us Hippo wasn't a pacifist, that he would fight. To be robbed and not go to the law ? And those who fight back are no longer considered Christians ? I reject that completely, as there is no biblical teaching I can square up with it.

There is a time to kill. That is biblical. Declaring that you no longer count people as Christians that fight back is not. Yeah, sounds harsh, I can't help it. Perhaps SOME Christians were pacifists, but some most definitely weren't.

 

[RLBosley]

The last statement could be debated.

How? Just war theory typically requires a war must meet the following conditions or similar:

Open declaration of war
Limited objectives
Reasonable chance of a success
Distinction between combatants and non-combatants
Non-combatant immunity
Proportionality

Has there ever been a war that met all these qualifications? Is it even possible, especially in the modern age? I really don't think so.

I'm sure you could. The quote I put up from "City of God" tells us Hippo wasn't a pacifist, that he would fight. To be robbed and not go to the law ? And those who fight back are no longer considered Christians ? I reject that completely, as there is no biblical teaching I can square up with it.

There is a time to kill. That is biblical. Declaring that you no longer count people as Christians that fight back is not. Yeah, sounds harsh, I can't help it. Perhaps SOME Christians were pacifists, but some most definitely weren't.

You mean Augustine, not Hippo, he was Bishop of Hippo. And I never said he was a pacifist. He is usually considered the father of Christian Just War theory. Your statement was that the ECFs were not pacifistic and I provided some quotes to show that they were. I do agree that Tertullian took it to far saying those who fight back are not Christian, however that goes to show just how strongly the early Christians felt on this issue. The early church seems to have been, according to both early church writings and critics, pacifistic. There really isn't any way to get around that.

That said, your assertion that there is no biblical support for nonviolence (or not suing a thief) doesn't make it so. I would offer the counter that there is no biblical basis for a Christian to employ violence (especially lethal force), particularly in warfare. Self-defense is a little less clear as it pertains to non-lethal force. I also don't see any warrant at all for suing a thief, though I admit I have not researched that one much at all.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

How? Just war theory typically requires a war must meet the following conditions or similar:

Open declaration of war
Limited objectives
Reasonable chance of a success
Distinction between combatants and non-combatants
Non-combatant immunity
Proportionality

Has there ever been a war that met all these qualifications? Is it even possible, especially in the modern age? I really don't think so.

First, I don't see that everyone followed this theory. Again,….
"They who have waged war in obedience to the divine command, or in conformity with His laws, have represented in their persons the public justice or the wisdom of government, and in this capacity have put to death wicked men; such persons have by no means violated the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill."


From
City of God
Augustine
Schaff, Philip

Second, a discussion about the Just War theory won't bear any fruit, because of the way you have framed the debate.

You mean Augustine, not Hippo, he was Bishop of Hippo.

Yes I know, I have identified him correctly several times in this thread,

And I never said he was a pacifist.

I didnt say you said he was a pacifist. I merely use him to point out there were very early Christians who were most definitely NOT pacifists. I have tried to make that point, several times.

Your statement was that the ECFs were not pacifistic and I provided some quotes to show that they were. I do agree that Tertullian took it to far saying those who fight back are not Christian, however that goes to show just how strongly the early Christians felt on this issue. The early church seems to have been, according to both early church writings and critics, pacifistic. There really isn't any way to get around that.

You've shown me some were pacifists. I've shown you some were not. You cannot point to a time when all Christians were in lockstep with any doctrine, much less this one.

That said, your assertion that there is no biblical support for nonviolence (or not suing a thief) doesn't make it so.

You cannot make doctrine out of what isn't there.

I would offer the counter that there is no biblical basis for a Christian to employ violence (especially lethal force), particularly in warfare.

And I would completely disagree. Sometimes the peacemaker is the one who goes and gets the bat out of his trunk.

Self-defense is a little less clear as it pertains to non-lethal force. I also don't see any warrant at all for suing a thief, though I admit I have not researched that one much at all.

I would say that's kind of not an issue, since it's the State that charges thieves.

 

[RLBosley]

First, I don't see that everyone followed this theory. Again,….
"They who have waged war in obedience to the divine command, or in conformity with His laws, have represented in their persons the public justice or the wisdom of government, and in this capacity have put to death wicked men; such persons have by no means violated the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill."

From
City of God
Augustine
Schaff, Philip

OK. I never said otherwise. Augustine did say that.

Second, a discussion about the Just War theory won't bear any fruit, because of the way you have framed the debate.

Why? I would agree that it's not really the topic of the thread, but I'm not sure that I've "framed the debate" in any way to make that discussion unfruitful. Or is testing a theory by it's own ideas and history not allowed somehow?

I merely use him to point out there were very early Christians who were most definitely NOT pacifists. I have tried to make that point, several times.

OK. I don't think anyone has ever disagreed with that. But that really isn't all you've tried to do with that quote. You've said, on the basis of that quote alone, that the early Christians were not pacifists. Seemingly you are referring to Christianity as a whole or at least the majority. That's simply not the case. All the evidence points toward an overwhelming agreement on non-violence up until Constantine.

You've shown me some were pacifists. I've shown you some were not. You cannot point to a time when all Christians were in lockstep with any doctrine, much less this one.

And I never said they were.

You cannot make doctrine out of what isn't there.

True. And what isn't there is support for Christians killing their enemies.

And I would completely disagree. Sometimes the peacemaker is the one who goes and gets the bat out of his trunk.

Yes, I'm sure that's what Jesus had in mind in Matthew 5:9.

I would say that's kind of not an issue, since it's the State that charges thieves.

Are you sure about that? Even small claims court?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Why? I would agree that it's not really the topic of the thread, but I'm not sure that I've "framed the debate" in any way to make that discussion unfruitful. Or is testing a theory by it's own ideas and history not allowed somehow?

You gave a lot of parameters that were "typically" involved, and then stated no war could possibly meet those. I'm not going to debate that, I'm going to write it off as opinion.

True. And what isn't there is support for Christians killing their enemies.

This is you framing the debate. Nobody has said it is ok to kill your enemies. I reject it as part of the debate, and furthermore think it's pretty close to outright dishonesty, on your part.

Are you sure about that? Even small claims court?

On that point, I most likely agree with you.

 

[RLBosley]

You gave a lot of parameters that were "typically" involved, and then stated no war could possibly meet those. I'm not going to debate that, I'm going to write it off as opinion.

No. Actually I asked is it even possible. I am highly doubtful but I could be wrong. I never definitively said it is impossible. Also, those are the typical points, or something similar, that are involved in the various versions of Just War theory. Do you disagree with that? Why are you so defensive over something that really isn't even the issue here?

This is you framing the debate. Nobody has said it is ok to kill your enemies. I reject it as part of the debate, and furthermore think it's pretty close to outright dishonesty, on your part.

Nonsense. Of course it has been said in this very thread that it is OK for Christians to kill their enemies. Not in those exact words perhaps, but what do you think happens in war? The frequent refrain is that if someone is attacking your family you stop them. There are no caveats about not using lethal force. Sometimes lethal force is explicitly referred to as the way to stop them. You yourself said that there is a time to kill, quoting Ecclesiastes. So please, don't say something so ridiculous that no one has said it is OK to kill enemies when yes they clearly and repeatedly have.

On that point, I most likely agree with you.

Well that's something at least. :thumbs:

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Nonsense. Of course it has been said in this very thread that it is OK for Christians to kill their enemies. Not in those exact words perhaps,

PERHAPS ? PERHAPS ?

Look, be honest with me. If you're not going to be honest with me, why should I be respectful to you. Nobody has said it is ok to kill your enemies. And if you think that is truly my stance, then it is you who has comprehension problems.

but what do you think happens in war? The frequent refrain is that if someone is attacking your family you stop them. There are no caveats about not using lethal force. Sometimes lethal force is explicitly referred to as the way to stop them. You yourself said that there is a time to kill, quoting Ecclesiastes. So please, don't say something so ridiculous that no one has said it is OK to kill enemies when yes they clearly and repeatedly have.

Please stop hyperbolizing what we are saying.

 

[RLBosley]

PERHAPS ? PERHAPS ?

Look, be honest with me. If you're not going to be honest with me, why should I be respectful to you. Nobody has said it is ok to kill your enemies.

Please stop hyperbolizing what we are saying.

Last chance before I'm done with you. You are lying through your teeth and then dare accuse me of dishonesty. Ridiculous.

Look through this very thread. There are multiple times when people have spoken of using lethal force on enemies and making it out to be the good and right thing.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Last chance before I'm done with you. You are lying through your teeth and then dare accuse me of dishonesty. Ridiculous.

Oh please, be done with me. :thumbs:

Look through this very thread. There are multiple times when people have spoken of using lethal force on enemies and making it out to be the good and right thing.

For you to reduce our arguments to "it's OK to kill your enemies" is completely dishonest. I stand by that.

Guess we still can't be friends. Oh well.