First, it is permissible for my daughter to get an abortion. That does not make it ok.
Are we clear on the difference ?
Are we clear on the difference ?
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Was Jesus a Pacifist?
- Thread starter Rebel
- Start date
No. Because how would it be permissible? Legally? It's also legally OK.
I can't believe that this is really something that we need to be discussing.
Then I guess you're going to have to stay wrong. I'm guessing most people get my point.
:laugh::laugh: Right. And here I thought you'd actually decided to discuss this like an adult. Fool me once...
And you can pretend there's no difference. Like I said, I'm betting most get my point.
And your attitude is at least as bad as what you say mine is.
Any other questions I didn't answer ?
And your attitude is at least as bad as what you say mine is.
Any other questions I didn't answer ?
Unbelievable...
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/okay
I'm sure you think so. After all I must have a bad attitude to dare disagree, right?
No, I think we are through.
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I'm already looking forward to our next chat. :thumbsup:
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I submit my posts in the Baptismal Regeneration thread, and yours about the SDA, as proof I can hold a conversation and be respectful of the people in it.
The statement "kill your enemies" is a generalization, as "enemies" remains ambiguous. I don't think it's ok to kill your enemies. I have never said it. Nobody has. We have spelled out SPECIFIC instances where violence is justified, only to have the argument reduced to "you say it's ok to kill your enemies".
It has not been an honest debate.
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I told you that it was unlikely to happen. As I said, this is far too emotional of a topic for many people and instead of actually dealing with the arguments they'd rather deflect. Like debate the meaning of words that we all know, understand and use regularly.
On topic - Was Jesus a Pacifist? You gave the following definition of pacifism:
I'm not sure if this is the best description of pacifism as I can cause someone physical harm for a completely noble purpose, doctors do it all the time. So I would add something like "with malicious intent" or "in order to destroy or injure."
I would say that yes Jesus practiced and taught pacifism (I prefer the term non-violence, it's less loaded and not as easily misconstrued). The Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain, especially point towards responding to violence in a non violent way. The writings in the New Testament are equally clear; never avenge yourself, never respond to cursing with cursing, bless those who curse, endure suffering, rejoice in persecution, pursue peace.
Of course non-violence is not the primary topic of the New Testament, the gospel and the Christian's response is, so there isn't a lot comparatively speaking that deals with violence directly. But that said, there is not a single text in the entire New Testament rightly understood that supports Christians using violence, especially deadly force. It is never seen as acceptable even as a last resort, let alone as a good or something that is commanded today. The three texts that are always used are John 2:13-16; Luke 22:35-38 and 1 Timothy 5:8. John 2 is the strongest in appearing to support violence, but even it falls short, the other two aren't even close.
Yes Jesus will return "taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel." That is why I said earlier that it may be a stretch to define Jesus as a pacifist, depending on the definition used. When Jesus returns in judgement he will kill people (either/both at the second coming itself or through the judgments that precede), I think we are all in agreement on that. Also, as orthodox Christians (I hope) we all affirm the Trinity and know that Jesus is nothing less than God. God has often judged people and whole nations though killing them. But this does not contradict Jesus' teaching on pacifism in two ways: First, he is God and we are not. He is the author of life and can do whatever he pleases with it. We do not have that authority. Second, his judgments are perfectly just and righteous. His killing of people is as that of the righteous judge of the universe. No hint of corruption anywhere in his judgments. The same cannot be said for even the most virtuous human judge.
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You said, "When Jesus returns in judgement he will kill people (either/both at the second coming itself or through the judgments that precede), I think we are all in agreement on that." Well, at the risk of inviting all manner of vitriol (not from you), I am not in agreement with that.
OK. Then what do you think will happen at the end? How do you understand Revelation 19:15-21?
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I don't know, and no one else does, either.
You have no opinion on it at all?
When Christ is done the birds of the earth will feed on the "great" mens carcasses.
Oh, sorry, was that too vitriolic ?
Oh, sorry, was that too vitriolic ?
No because it wasn't an insult or attack on me. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion.
I suppose I have an opinion; I hesitate to offer it. I might summarize it like this: I don't believe Jesus would have had one set of values while He was here and an opposite set after He left here.
OK. Well I don't see the two as opposed. Jesus' first advent was for the purpose of accomplishing redemption for his people, not execute the final judgment. When he returns it will be in wrath, gathering his people together and judging the rest. We are told to follow his example that he set during his ministry and leave wrath to God.
And again, going back to what I said earlier, as God he has the right to do whatever he likes with the life he has made. Which would give him the freedom to kill if he chooses and not us.
I am curious how you interpret Revelation 19:15-21. Feel free to PM if you would like. Or tell me no, that works too.
Do't keep it private, if there's no personal insults, or paraphrasing of other's words, there shouldn't be a problem,.
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
I'm going to step out on a limb here, probably tying a rope around my neck. But I'm going to publicly say that I believe it's ok to kill your enemies, under proper circumstances. Never in cold blood.
I have had the misfortune of being forced to take a life. If it's avoidable, do so. But not at all costs. Not at the cost of your family. Not at the cost of an innocent life. Yes, at the cost of a wallet, or a replaceable possession.
It's a horrible reality, but loving your neighbor sometimes means killing a threat to them.
I have had the misfortune of being forced to take a life. If it's avoidable, do so. But not at all costs. Not at the cost of your family. Not at the cost of an innocent life. Yes, at the cost of a wallet, or a replaceable possession.
It's a horrible reality, but loving your neighbor sometimes means killing a threat to them.