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Was Mary a Biological Mother or a Surrogate Mother for Jesus?
- Thread starter Eliyahu
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Doubting Thomas
Active Member
That's ironic coming from someone who had just implied that if Jesus shared Mary's DNA he must have had a sin nature:donnA said:Your really adding a lot to scripture, recreating the bible.
Again, where in Scripture does it say this?donnA said:If Jesus had Mary's dna He also inherited her sin nature.
I already mentioned that the human body was deteriorated greatly since the sin entered the world.
As soon as the sin entered the world, the human beings started to have the limited life time though it was about 900 years.
The life time was further reduced when the Flood destroyed the Water mist layer in the air which prevented the UV's. The effect was not shown immediately, but as the generations changed the life time was reduced to 100-175 years ( Abraham 175, Isaac 110, Jacob 147, etc), then it was reduced further to 80-90 years as of today. I think it was because it needed some generations to have the inferiority shown in the human genes that the life time was not reduced immediately after the Flood.
The sin which entered the world, caused tremendous problems in the environment, in the human bodies, in the human brain system and thinking, in the human relations and in the fellowship in the society. The people lost the confidence in the success, in the future, death reigned all ( Romans 5:14-21), people suffered from various diseases, weaknesses, deformations, weakness of eyesight, short lifetime of the teeth, weak immune system, innate handicaps such as deaf, dumb, blindness, diabetes sensitiveness, weak to strokes, aphasia, weak to cancer, depression, bipolar, quick to anger, greedy mentality, quick addiction to the alcohol, less control over the sexual desire, less and limited memory, reduced brain capacity ( Adam named thousands of animals and plants), etc. Such weakened capacity led the people to be less confident in the justice, to be jealous to kill the brother ( Cain killed Abel), to pursue the easier solution for the hunger by stealing, telling lies, made the people more independent from God every moment of the life so that they do not follow God, nor wait for the guidance from God, and the sin led the people to groan in the agony and to doubt about the grace of God, could not understand what the God says ( as even Mary could not understand what the Son says - Luke 2:50-) limiting the capacity and understanding of the people ( as Mary could not know where her own Son was and had to spend 3 days - Luke 2:43-46). These natures were continuously transmitted to the next generations thru the bodies. The scientific researches say that even the fetus take some fake actions or get upset in the belly of the mother. So, no one can be sinless even in the womb of her or his mother, we know.
Therefore Paul simply stated this:
Romans 8
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Human bodies are formed by the fertilization between Sperm and Ovum, and they are equally reflecting the characters and personalities of the next generations.
If God used both Sperm and Ovum of human beings, then the next offspring would have exhibited the sin natures of both couple. If there were any special way to produce a human only from an ovum, then the child would have shown the mother's sin nature only. Half sinner would be a sinner as well.
Jesus who knew no sin had to be born free of sins, and if He took anything from Mary, then He would have had the problems of Mary too. Even today, one boy resembles his mother, and the other boy resembles his father. But in detail, some portion of one child's character is from his mother, other portion of the same boy's personality is from his father.
If Jesus took the egg of Mary, He might have not been able to know where Nathanael was ( John 1:48) as Mary didn't know where her son was ( Luke 2:43-50). One may say that the Almighty God could make the ovum of Mary become sinless and perfect by His POwer.
However, we should remember this. All the weakness and infirmities of human beings were inherited from the parents and they were the results of the sin natures. Throughout the history, God has never resolved the sins and their problems by other method than the Sacrifices which were the shadow type of Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice at the Cross.
God cannot make anyone perfect without the Sacrifice. Moreover, such Sacrifice must have been BELIEVED and ACCEPTED. Jesus died even for the Hitler and Stalin, but if they had not accepted it and believed Jesus as their own Savior, the Sacrifice cannot benefit them at all.
This is the fundamental and important principle of Redemption. The Almighty God cannot save any sinners and send them to the Heaven if they REJECT the Blood of Jesus shed at the Cross and His death.
There is NO WAY for God to send the sinners who do not repent, to the Heaven, to give the Unbelievers the Eternal Life.
The Ovum of Mary was affected by Sins, and contaminated by sin natures, and such sin natures cannot be removed until the Manifiestation of the Sons of God. Instead, God showed the way for the sinners to be redeemed thru the Blood of Jesus.
If God could perfect the ovum of Mary, why didn't He do it for the sperm of Joseph as well? Then Jesus would not have had to come to die for us. Why didn't God perfect and purify the sperms of all men and ova of all women to be sinless and blemish, spotless so that all people may become perfect and sinless ?
There was no way to resolve the sin problem other than the Sacrifice of Jesus at the Cross ! This is why Acts 4:12 says there is NO other name by which we must be saved, other than Jesus Christ!
That's why Jesus Christ came bravely to go to Calvary, to battle the greatest battle and to win the victory for us, and He did it when He said " IT IS FINISHED"
Therefore the arguments that the Ovum of Mary was used is absurd when we consider the sinless person Jesus Christ and the sinful nature of human body, of human ovum.
As soon as the sin entered the world, the human beings started to have the limited life time though it was about 900 years.
The life time was further reduced when the Flood destroyed the Water mist layer in the air which prevented the UV's. The effect was not shown immediately, but as the generations changed the life time was reduced to 100-175 years ( Abraham 175, Isaac 110, Jacob 147, etc), then it was reduced further to 80-90 years as of today. I think it was because it needed some generations to have the inferiority shown in the human genes that the life time was not reduced immediately after the Flood.
The sin which entered the world, caused tremendous problems in the environment, in the human bodies, in the human brain system and thinking, in the human relations and in the fellowship in the society. The people lost the confidence in the success, in the future, death reigned all ( Romans 5:14-21), people suffered from various diseases, weaknesses, deformations, weakness of eyesight, short lifetime of the teeth, weak immune system, innate handicaps such as deaf, dumb, blindness, diabetes sensitiveness, weak to strokes, aphasia, weak to cancer, depression, bipolar, quick to anger, greedy mentality, quick addiction to the alcohol, less control over the sexual desire, less and limited memory, reduced brain capacity ( Adam named thousands of animals and plants), etc. Such weakened capacity led the people to be less confident in the justice, to be jealous to kill the brother ( Cain killed Abel), to pursue the easier solution for the hunger by stealing, telling lies, made the people more independent from God every moment of the life so that they do not follow God, nor wait for the guidance from God, and the sin led the people to groan in the agony and to doubt about the grace of God, could not understand what the God says ( as even Mary could not understand what the Son says - Luke 2:50-) limiting the capacity and understanding of the people ( as Mary could not know where her own Son was and had to spend 3 days - Luke 2:43-46). These natures were continuously transmitted to the next generations thru the bodies. The scientific researches say that even the fetus take some fake actions or get upset in the belly of the mother. So, no one can be sinless even in the womb of her or his mother, we know.
Therefore Paul simply stated this:
Romans 8
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Human bodies are formed by the fertilization between Sperm and Ovum, and they are equally reflecting the characters and personalities of the next generations.
If God used both Sperm and Ovum of human beings, then the next offspring would have exhibited the sin natures of both couple. If there were any special way to produce a human only from an ovum, then the child would have shown the mother's sin nature only. Half sinner would be a sinner as well.
Jesus who knew no sin had to be born free of sins, and if He took anything from Mary, then He would have had the problems of Mary too. Even today, one boy resembles his mother, and the other boy resembles his father. But in detail, some portion of one child's character is from his mother, other portion of the same boy's personality is from his father.
If Jesus took the egg of Mary, He might have not been able to know where Nathanael was ( John 1:48) as Mary didn't know where her son was ( Luke 2:43-50). One may say that the Almighty God could make the ovum of Mary become sinless and perfect by His POwer.
However, we should remember this. All the weakness and infirmities of human beings were inherited from the parents and they were the results of the sin natures. Throughout the history, God has never resolved the sins and their problems by other method than the Sacrifices which were the shadow type of Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice at the Cross.
God cannot make anyone perfect without the Sacrifice. Moreover, such Sacrifice must have been BELIEVED and ACCEPTED. Jesus died even for the Hitler and Stalin, but if they had not accepted it and believed Jesus as their own Savior, the Sacrifice cannot benefit them at all.
This is the fundamental and important principle of Redemption. The Almighty God cannot save any sinners and send them to the Heaven if they REJECT the Blood of Jesus shed at the Cross and His death.
There is NO WAY for God to send the sinners who do not repent, to the Heaven, to give the Unbelievers the Eternal Life.
The Ovum of Mary was affected by Sins, and contaminated by sin natures, and such sin natures cannot be removed until the Manifiestation of the Sons of God. Instead, God showed the way for the sinners to be redeemed thru the Blood of Jesus.
If God could perfect the ovum of Mary, why didn't He do it for the sperm of Joseph as well? Then Jesus would not have had to come to die for us. Why didn't God perfect and purify the sperms of all men and ova of all women to be sinless and blemish, spotless so that all people may become perfect and sinless ?
There was no way to resolve the sin problem other than the Sacrifice of Jesus at the Cross ! This is why Acts 4:12 says there is NO other name by which we must be saved, other than Jesus Christ!
That's why Jesus Christ came bravely to go to Calvary, to battle the greatest battle and to win the victory for us, and He did it when He said " IT IS FINISHED"
Therefore the arguments that the Ovum of Mary was used is absurd when we consider the sinless person Jesus Christ and the sinful nature of human body, of human ovum.
Doubting Thomas said:Where in the Bible does it say that the "sin nature" is encoded in the DNA?
And even if the "sin nature" is somehow conveyed by DNA, who's to say that God couldn't have just infused new DNA into one of Mary's ova? Or perhaps there was something involved in the miraculous virgin birth that prevented Jesus from getting a propensity to sin while otherwise inheriting his mother's biology so he could redeem our humanity with his (since he's one of us, yet without sin) and really be of the seed of David and of Abraham? I'm sure the class could come up with some more ideas...
GASP - You mean that God COULD have used Mary's egg to create a perfect body for the Word? My goodness! What power God would have!
Eliyahu said:I already mentioned that the human body was deteriorated greatly since the sin entered the world.
As soon as the sin entered the world, the human beings started to have the limited life time though it was about 900 years.
The life time was further reduced when the Flood destroyed the Water mist layer in the air which prevented the UV's. The effect was not shown immediately, but as the generations changed the life time was reduced to 100-175 years ( Abraham 175, Isaac 110, Jacob 147, etc), then it was reduced further to 80-90 years as of today. I think it was because it needed some generations to have the inferiority shown in the human genes that the life time was not reduced immediately after the Flood.
The sin which entered the world, caused tremendous problems in the environment, in the human bodies, in the human brain system and thinking, in the human relations and in the fellowship in the society. The people lost the confidence in the success, in the future, death reigned all ( Romans 5:14-21), people suffered from various diseases, weaknesses, deformations, weakness of eyesight, short lifetime of the teeth, weak immune system, innate handicaps such as deaf, dumb, blindness, diabetes sensitiveness, weak to strokes, aphasia, weak to cancer, depression, bipolar, quick to anger, greedy mentality, quick addiction to the alcohol, less control over the sexual desire, less and limited memory, reduced brain capacity ( Adam named thousands of animals and plants), etc. Such weakened capacity led the people to be less confident in the justice, to be jealous to kill the brother ( Cain killed Abel), to pursue the easier solution for the hunger by stealing, telling lies, made the people more independent from God every moment of the life so that they do not follow God, nor wait for the guidance from God, and the sin led the people to groan in the agony and to doubt about the grace of God, could not understand what the God says ( as even Mary could not understand what the Son says - Luke 2:50-) limiting the capacity and understanding of the people ( as Mary could not know where her own Son was and had to spend 3 days - Luke 2:43-46). These natures were continuously transmitted to the next generations thru the bodies. The scientific researches say that even the fetus take some fake actions or get upset in the belly of the mother. So, no one can be sinless even in the womb of her or his mother, we know.
Therefore Paul simply stated this:
Romans 8
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Human bodies are formed by the fertilization between Sperm and Ovum, and they are equally reflecting the characters and personalities of the next generations.
If God used both Sperm and Ovum of human beings, then the next offspring would have exhibited the sin natures of both couple. If there were any special way to produce a human only from an ovum, then the child would have shown the mother's sin nature only. Half sinner would be a sinner as well.
Jesus who knew no sin had to be born free of sins, and if He took anything from Mary, then He would have had the problems of Mary too. Even today, one boy resembles his mother, and the other boy resembles his father. But in detail, some portion of one child's character is from his mother, other portion of the same boy's personality is from his father.
If Jesus took the egg of Mary, He might have not been able to know where Nathanael was ( John 1:48) as Mary didn't know where her son was ( Luke 2:43-50). One may say that the Almighty God could make the ovum of Mary become sinless and perfect by His POwer.
However, we should remember this. All the weakness and infirmities of human beings were inherited from the parents and they were the results of the sin natures. Throughout the history, God has never resolved the sins and their problems by other method than the Sacrifices which were the shadow type of Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice at the Cross.
God cannot make anyone perfect without the Sacrifice. Moreover, such Sacrifice must have been BELIEVED and ACCEPTED. Jesus died even for the Hitler and Stalin, but if they had not accepted it and believed Jesus as their own Savior, the Sacrifice cannot benefit them at all.
This is the fundamental and important principle of Redemption. The Almighty God cannot save any sinners and send them to the Heaven if they REJECT the Blood of Jesus shed at the Cross and His death.
There is NO WAY for God to send the sinners who do not repent, to the Heaven, to give the Unbelievers the Eternal Life.
The Ovum of Mary was affected by Sins, and contaminated by sin natures, and such sin natures cannot be removed until the Manifiestation of the Sons of God. Instead, God showed the way for the sinners to be redeemed thru the Blood of Jesus.
If God could perfect the ovum of Mary, why didn't He do it for the sperm of Joseph as well? Then Jesus would not have had to come to die for us. Why didn't God perfect and purify the sperms of all men and ova of all women to be sinless and blemish, spotless so that all people may become perfect and sinless ?
There was no way to resolve the sin problem other than the Sacrifice of Jesus at the Cross ! This is why Acts 4:12 says there is NO other name by which we must be saved, other than Jesus Christ!
That's why Jesus Christ came bravely to go to Calvary, to battle the greatest battle and to win the victory for us, and He did it when He said " IT IS FINISHED"
Therefore the arguments that the Ovum of Mary was used is absurd when we consider the sinless person Jesus Christ and the sinful nature of human body, of human ovum.
Wow - and here all along, I thought it was God's CHOICE to bring down the lifespan of man. Genesis 6:3
annsni said:Wow - and here all along, I thought it was God's CHOICE to bring down the lifespan of man. Genesis 6:3
I think the god of Biological Motherhood is very similar to the god of Calvinists.
The god of Calvinists can save all the people if He wills, but has decreed some people to believe in Jesus and thereby to go to the Heaven, but others ( 99%) not to believe in Jesus and thereby to go to the Hell even though that god could save them all only if he wills. So, in this case they claim Jesus didn't die for the whole world but only for the Elect, the chosen people.
The god of Biological Motherhood is the god who can perfect the ovum of any woman if he wills, but he did it only for the ovum of Mary. If he intended to do so, he could make even the sperm of Joseph be perfect, even all the sperms of the human race could become perfect and all the ovum of all the women could be made perfect if that god willed, so that the offsprings could be sinless and perfect, and to live eternal life without the need of Jesus coming and dying the terrible death at the Cross.
Because the god is sovereign and Almighty and the most powerful ! But he didn't do it for his pleasure and the will oe mystery! for his glory which no human can fathom.
That god is a hypocrite, has no loving kindness, no sympathy with the tragedy of the people, but may have unlimited power to commit adultery with the wife of another human male ( Joseph), and must be an unlimitedly powerful god without any restriction by his own character of Justice and Love.
This god must go to the Hell because he doesn't save the people except the Elect even though he can save if he wills, and leaves 99% people not to believe and to go to the Hell, and leave them to live wickedly and to commit sins, he is the source of all evil and tragedy.
That god surely should go to the Hell and the followers of such god may go to the Hell too unless they repent from following such god, the idol in their hearts.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
I know...it's hard to believe. :smilewinkgrin:annsni said:GASP - You mean that God COULD have used Mary's egg to create a perfect body for the Word? My goodness! What power God would have!
Most of us agree that life starts at conception. Because it does most are against such controversial methods of contraception such as “the morning after pill.” Why? It destroys life which has just begun, or at least the possibility of it. There is a small period of time between the fertilization of an egg, and the time that it becomes an embryo; just as there is a longer period of time between the time it becomes an embryo and a fetus (ca. 8 weeks).
Most conservative Protestants and Catholics are against abortion because they are against the taking of a life. Many consider it on par with murder. It is wrong.
Now, consider the reason why Christ came into the world:
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
When we consider that Christ bore our griefs and carried our sorrows, we might do well to ask ourselves the question: how much of griefs and sorrows did he bear? Was it just from his ministry onward? Did he just empathize with us in our grief and sorrow from about age 30 to 33, or do the elderly and very young count as well? Did he bear their sorrows as well? Of course he did. If young, how young? Can infants bear pain before birth? Ask any doctor who works among those infants that are born to drug addicts and those born with fetal alcohol syndrome. Certainly they endure pain, even before they are born. Then ask the question, how far back in the pregnancy are they able to feel the pain. It is evident that there is life in the womb, and that that life starts right from the time of conception; from the time of the fertilized egg.
The traditional view of the virgin birth is that Christ was born of the virgin Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit, which naturally implies an egg being fertilized. No one thought otherwise until just recently. No one ever challenged that position.
Now some are saying that it can’t be that way.
Some say that Christ wasn’t conceived of the Holy Spirit, but rather He originated from an embryo. But that is not what the Bible says. Take that position to its logical conclusion. If that were true, then life before the embryo would not be sacred. And there would be no special reason to deny the morning after pill to those who wanted it. After all Christ was totally human, and his humanity didn’t start until after fertilization. Therefore humanity before the embryo isn’t sacred and can be done away with at a whim. Jesus did not bear the griefs and sorrows of those before that time.
SFIC at one point, said that Christ started his life at two months in the womb. If that be the case then abortions during the first two months of the first tri-semester must be alright. Life is not sacred during that time. Jesus was totally man and totally God at the same time; the God man. The time before his time in the womb, whatever that time was couldn’t have contributed to his humanity and therefore is not important and is not sacred. It doesn’t matter if it is aborted. I hope you see the logic of this.
Does God count all life as sacred or not? Did Christ bear all the grief and sorrow of mankind or not? And that would include life starting from conception. Humanity starts from conception. It starts when the egg is fertilized, before it even becomes an embryo. If the life of Christ did not begin then, then he wasn’t totally human and couldn’t totally relate to humans. He had a completely human nature in every way, and yet at the same time remained without sin. God the Holy Spirit is able to accomplish that feat. Do you believe that He can?
Something to think about.
Most conservative Protestants and Catholics are against abortion because they are against the taking of a life. Many consider it on par with murder. It is wrong.
Now, consider the reason why Christ came into the world:
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
When we consider that Christ bore our griefs and carried our sorrows, we might do well to ask ourselves the question: how much of griefs and sorrows did he bear? Was it just from his ministry onward? Did he just empathize with us in our grief and sorrow from about age 30 to 33, or do the elderly and very young count as well? Did he bear their sorrows as well? Of course he did. If young, how young? Can infants bear pain before birth? Ask any doctor who works among those infants that are born to drug addicts and those born with fetal alcohol syndrome. Certainly they endure pain, even before they are born. Then ask the question, how far back in the pregnancy are they able to feel the pain. It is evident that there is life in the womb, and that that life starts right from the time of conception; from the time of the fertilized egg.
The traditional view of the virgin birth is that Christ was born of the virgin Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit, which naturally implies an egg being fertilized. No one thought otherwise until just recently. No one ever challenged that position.
Now some are saying that it can’t be that way.
Some say that Christ wasn’t conceived of the Holy Spirit, but rather He originated from an embryo. But that is not what the Bible says. Take that position to its logical conclusion. If that were true, then life before the embryo would not be sacred. And there would be no special reason to deny the morning after pill to those who wanted it. After all Christ was totally human, and his humanity didn’t start until after fertilization. Therefore humanity before the embryo isn’t sacred and can be done away with at a whim. Jesus did not bear the griefs and sorrows of those before that time.
SFIC at one point, said that Christ started his life at two months in the womb. If that be the case then abortions during the first two months of the first tri-semester must be alright. Life is not sacred during that time. Jesus was totally man and totally God at the same time; the God man. The time before his time in the womb, whatever that time was couldn’t have contributed to his humanity and therefore is not important and is not sacred. It doesn’t matter if it is aborted. I hope you see the logic of this.
Does God count all life as sacred or not? Did Christ bear all the grief and sorrow of mankind or not? And that would include life starting from conception. Humanity starts from conception. It starts when the egg is fertilized, before it even becomes an embryo. If the life of Christ did not begin then, then he wasn’t totally human and couldn’t totally relate to humans. He had a completely human nature in every way, and yet at the same time remained without sin. God the Holy Spirit is able to accomplish that feat. Do you believe that He can?
Something to think about.
Doubting Thomas said:That's ironic coming from someone who had just implied that if Jesus shared Mary's DNA he must have had a sin nature:
As according to scripture. Everyone born from a human egg is born with the sin nature. Unless you are saying babies do have the sin nature.
annsni said:GASP - You mean that God COULD have used Mary's egg to create a perfect body for the Word? My goodness! What power God would have!
His statement is in violation of scripture, and adds to scripture what isn't even hinted at. God does not violate they way He has said He does things. He does not change.
DHK said:Some say that Christ wasn’t conceived of the Holy Spirit,
Who said that? You may be misrepresentling and distorting.
DHK said:After all Christ was totally human, and his humanity didn’t start until after fertilization. Therefore humanity before the embryo isn’t sacred and can be done away with at a whim. Jesus did not bear the griefs and sorrows of those before that time.
What was Jesus Christ just before the Fertilization?
I am sure that there were millions of True Believers even during the Dark Ages and during Reformation Era who believed " The Word of God became Flesh" without any human involvement.
The concept of Virgin Birth by Roman Catholic is totally different from that of Bible.
RCC believes the ovum of Mary became the Flesh of Jesus by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
The Bible clearly says, The Word of God became Flesh, and therefore Mary didn't need to contribute her egg or need to get her egg to be fertilized with the sperm.
The Word of God came into the world enfleshed with the flesh, arranged by the Holy Spirit, as He appeared in human flesh when He wrestled with Jacob, and when He ate the meals provided by Abraham.
The only difference is that He appeared in the smaller flesh, in the tiny flesh, in the human embryo.
Jesus never gave up being the God and perfect human being, even 1 second before the conception, even 1 second after the conception, settling in the womb of Mary. He never was in the state of a sperm.
The concept of Virgin Birth by Roman Catholic is totally different from that of Bible.
RCC believes the ovum of Mary became the Flesh of Jesus by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
The Bible clearly says, The Word of God became Flesh, and therefore Mary didn't need to contribute her egg or need to get her egg to be fertilized with the sperm.
The Word of God came into the world enfleshed with the flesh, arranged by the Holy Spirit, as He appeared in human flesh when He wrestled with Jacob, and when He ate the meals provided by Abraham.
The only difference is that He appeared in the smaller flesh, in the tiny flesh, in the human embryo.
Jesus never gave up being the God and perfect human being, even 1 second before the conception, even 1 second after the conception, settling in the womb of Mary. He never was in the state of a sperm.
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To be "conceived" of the Holy Spirit involves an ovum or egg. Conception cannot start with an embryo or with a fetus, both of which have been suggested here. To say that conception started there is to deny that Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit.Eliyahu said:Who said that? You may be misrepresentling and distorting.
The eternal Word, the second person of the trinity.What was Jesus Christ just before the Fertilization?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
In the natural conception has to start with an egg and an embryo. but you keep forgetting this was not a normal conception.
Just as a male was not used for the fertilization of an egg, the female was not used to produce an egg.
Christ's body was placed in Mary's womb. To deny that and say an egg was fertilized is to deny Scripture.
Just as a male was not used for the fertilization of an egg, the female was not used to produce an egg.
Christ's body was placed in Mary's womb. To deny that and say an egg was fertilized is to deny Scripture.
Why not without egg? It is your theory, not the Biblical Truth.DHK said:To be "conceived" of the Holy Spirit involves an ovum or egg.
What if the Holy Spirit did it?Conception cannot start with an embryo or with a fetus, both of which have been suggested here.
You are the Judge according to your religion.To say that conception started there is to deny that Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
The eternal Word, the second person of the trinity.
Where is that Word gone when the egg became another person?
Is it hard to believe that the second Adam was created the same way as the first Adam and placed in the womb of Mary?
(I'm talking about the body of Christ. Not that Christ was created.)
The first Adam (his body) housed his own spirit.
The second Adam housed the spirit of God, thus He was sinless. He did not inherit the sin nature of Adam, which would have come through Mary had her egg been used.
(I'm talking about the body of Christ. Not that Christ was created.)
The first Adam (his body) housed his own spirit.
The second Adam housed the spirit of God, thus He was sinless. He did not inherit the sin nature of Adam, which would have come through Mary had her egg been used.
Do you mean without the involvement of Mary. (She is human). Not a chance. That would be a denial of the virgin birth. To deny the virgin birth is almost equal to a denial of Christianity itself. It is that fundamental a doctrine.Eliyahu said:I am sure that there were millions of True Believers even during the Dark Ages and during Reformation Era who believed " The Word of God became Flesh" without any human involvement.
It is not that different except for the added doctrines of the Immaculate Conception, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc. The basic doctrine of the Virgin birth is almost the same.The concept of Virgin Birth by Roman Catholic is totally different from that of Bible.
No they don't.RCC believes the ovum of Mary became the Flesh of Jesus by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
That is the Apostle's Creed that the Catholic Church recites over and over again. I have it memorized both in English and in Latin. I was Catholic for 20 years. You can find it here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles'_Creed#Text_of_the_CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty,creator of heaven and earth. and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. who was conceived by the power of the Holy Spiritborn of the Virgin Mary. suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell.On the third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into heavenand is seated at the right handof God the Father Almighty. From thence he shall come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church,the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.
It wasn't fertilized with sperm, but by the Holy Spirit--miraculously.The Bible clearly says, The Word of God became Flesh, and therefore Mary didn't need to contribute her egg or need to get her egg to be fertilized with the sperm.
Your assumptions and pre-conceived ideas about OT theophanies and Christophanies are red herrings which have nothing to do with this subject. They are irrelevant. Because God is able to appear to Abraham or Jacob has nothing to do with the Incarnation. They are apples and oranges. God at that time did not become totally human. Elijah and Moses did not become totally human when they met with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration.The Word of God came into the world enfleshed with the flesh, arranged by the Holy Spirit, as He appeared in human flesh when He wrestled with Jacob, and when He ate the meals provided by Abraham.
So who gets to decide how tiny is tiny. Why are you the authority (over God) that decides when the embryo arrived in Mary's womb. You also fit into this spaceship theory that God sent down from heaven a little embryo in his specially made spaceship and then plunked it into Mary's womb.The only difference is that He appeared in the smaller flesh, in the tiny flesh, in the human embryo.
But the Bible teaches that a virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son. Conception involves the ovum or egg of the woman.
You are right in that he never was in the state of a sperm. He was virgin born. Virgins don't have sperm. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. Spirits don't have sperm.Jesus never gave up being the God and perfect human being, even 1 second before the conception, even 1 second after the conception, settling in the womb of Mary. He never was in the state of a sperm.
However her "egg" or ovum was still fertilized, and life began where life always begins. To say anything less takes away from the humanity of Jesus Christ. He was always God, yes. But he was totally man; and you imply that he wasn't. You give him a status less than that of a total man.
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You are right; it was the virgin birth. But a birth nevertheless--a birth wherein Isaiah said: "a virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son." Conception involves an egg, and I do believe what the Bible says. I don't try to rationalize it away just because I may not understand it all. The Jehovah Witness says: "I don't believe in the trinity because I cannot understand it." They don't believe what they cannot understand. I find that same reasoning here.standingfirminChrist said:In the natural conception has to start with an egg and an embryo. but you keep forgetting this was not a normal conception.
With that statement:Just as a male was not used for the fertilization of an egg, the female was not used to produce an egg.
1. You limit Mary's physical capabilities.
2. You limit God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
3. In effect you are saying that God is not powerful. Human reason must be put above the power of God, and the Word of God.
This spaceship theory of God plunking an a body into Mary's womb is not according to Scripture. The Bible says that Mary conceived and brought forth a son. Conception starts with an egg or ovum.Christ's body was placed in Mary's womb.
I would rather believe Scriptures like Isaiah 7:14 and Mat.1:20 which state explicitly state that Christ was born of a virgin conceived of the Holy Spirit; not carried by a spaceship somehow and then plunked into the womb at a later date.To deny that and say an egg was fertilized is to deny Scripture.
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Amy.G said:Is it hard to believe that the second Adam was created the same way as the first Adam and placed in the womb of Mary?
(I'm talking about the body of Christ. Not that Christ was created.)
The first Adam (his body) housed his own spirit.
The second Adam housed the spirit of God, thus He was sinless. He did not inherit the sin nature of Adam, which would have come through Mary had her egg been used.
God could have created a body for Jesus out of a stone, a tree or dust. But none of those choices would make Him of the seed of David. It was necessary for their to be a bloodline followed in order for Jesus to be of the line of David.
What is interesting how all of you who feel that God COULD NOT have used Mary's egg to created a physical body for Jesus are so stuck on the fact that God COULD NOT have created a perfect human being out of an imperfect human. Even our own flesh will be renewed, perfected and glorified some day. Are you saying that God is incapable of doing that?? If this is so, then what about these Scriptures describing what will happen in the end:
1 Corinthians 15:52-54 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. "
Phil 3:20-21 "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."
It will not be a new body since we will be raised and glorified as Jesus was and we know that there was no body left in the tomb.
I think it's pretty clear that God can take what is sinful and make something that is clean, sinless and perfect.
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Words have meanings. Conception takes place nine months before birth, when a man and woman come together. It only has one meaning, and that meaning is obvious, especially in the light that it did take place nine months before birth. What is the problem here?Eliyahu said:Why not without egg? It is your theory, not the Biblical Truth.
So what if the Holy Spirit? That is like saying what if the Holy Spirit descended on Christ in a helicopter instead of a dove. The Lord uses natural means as much as possible, and we can't read into Scripture things that are not there. SFIC objects to me using the word "spaceship," and I object to you dreaming up all of these "what if's". Just believe the Bible instead.What if the Holy Spirit did it?
Because I quote to you Isa.7:14 and Mat.1:20, and say that I believe these verses literally, this is the rebuttal I get??You are the Judge according to your religion.
The Word was manifest in the flesh and we beheld his glory. (John 1:14) That is what happened.Where is that Word gone when the egg became another person?
That fertilized egg grew into an embryo which developed into a fetus, which sometime later was born as an infant into a cruel and heartless world. Two years later a king tried to kill him. And 30 years later he was crucified for declaring the truth: that He was the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior of mankind.
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