Was Mary a Biological Mother or a Surrogate Mother for Jesus?

[Gold Dragon]

Your god can improve all the genes of the people, but he doesn't do !

So you don't believe God is able correct the genes of people?

Because men have already figured it out. It is called gene therapy where the "correct" gene is inserted into the patient. Cystic Fibrosis in the article you posted above is one of the most promising diseases for this treatment.

 

[Eliyahu]

Please don't tell me that you are saying that God is incapable of doing something like that AND calling him wicked! That's blasphemy!!!!!

If you say that God can do everything like stealing, adultery, being merciless, being lazy, then you are misrepresenting God, and such god is not the True God at all.

Now if you check about your statement, you can find God can perfect any ovum if He wills, if He intends to do, but He doesn't do it. Why?

Why doesn't your God make all the ovums perfect while He is Omnipotent and Almighty?

 

[annsni]

How could the perfect person come out of the imperfect sinful human parts?

How is God going to sanctify our bodies and make them incorruptable? He can't do that since He is not capable of doing that for Jesus. So what Paul said in 1 Corinthians is untrue. What he said in Philemon is untrue too.

 

[DHK]

Why doesn't your God make all the ovums perfect while He is Omnipotent and Almighty?

In the Millennial Kingdom he will remove the curse, and some of those things will happen. But until then mankind is under the curse. The curse of man (i.e., the sin nature) is passed down through the man, thus the need for a virgin birth. Christ is the sinless Son of God, born of a virgin conceived of the Holy Spirit. There was no other way that he could die for our sins.
God has no intention of making us all perfect, until the resurrection takes place. Until that time we have to wait.
The Bible also says:
"We wait for the redemption of our bodies."

 

[Eliyahu]

So you don't believe God is able correct the genes of people?

Because men have already figured it out. It is called gene therapy where the "correct" gene is inserted into the patient. Cystic Fibrosis in the article you posted above is one of the most promising diseases for this treatment.

So, you mean God can perfect the all the genes of the human race? Why doesn't He do?
Please pray your God tonight that all the genes of the human race can be healed.
Why doesn't He do?

Understanding that there are several things that The Almighty God, the Omnipotent and Omniscient God cannot do, not because of other reasons or other enenmies, but because He is restricted by His own Attributes.

This is why understanding 10 Attributes of God which was declared before hanind over the ten commandments is very important.
Read it here:
6And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

God forgives the sins and transgressions by taking them Himself, but that will never be done without punishing them. This is why Jesus had to come and pay the price for the sins of the mankind by shedding the Blood and Dying at the Cross.

God cannot make the sinful ovums perfect unless it repents and believe in Jesus Christ and what He has done ( or will do in OT times).

Therefore such idea is absolutely ignorant of the Bible Truth.

If God can heal the ovums of all the people, why couldn't He do it for the sperms of all the men? Then all the people will be born perfectly, at least having the life time of 930 years as Adam lived.

 

[Eliyahu]

In the Millennial Kingdom he will remove the curse, and some of those things will happen. But until then mankind is under the curse. The curse of man (i.e., the sin nature) is passed down through the man, thus the need for a virgin birth. Christ is the sinless Son of God, born of a virgin conceived of the Holy Spirit. There was no other way that he could die for our sins.
God has no intention of making us all perfect, until the resurrection takes place. Until that time we have to wait.
The Bible also says:
"We wait for the redemption of our bodies."

Without shedding of the Blood, there is no redemption. Without the redemption, one cannot be perfect. Perfecting Ovum without its believing in Jesus cannot be fathomed.

 

[Eliyahu]

How is God going to sanctify our bodies and make them incorruptable? He can't do that since He is not capable of doing that for Jesus. So what Paul said in 1 Corinthians is untrue. What he said in Philemon is untrue too.

Our bodies will still remain corruptible until our death. Even the body of Mary was the same. She couldn't live as long as Adam did either.

There are rules and restrictions which God Himself is bound upon, and they are from God Himself.

His justice that the sin must pay the price or should have a redeemer restricts Him to forgive the sins of the ovums or the sperms and they cannot repent or believe what Jesus has done or will do at the Cross.

Many people misunderstand the capacity of God.

God cannot torture and force the people to believe in Jesus. God could not force and prohibit Adam and Eve not to eat the Fruit. If He did, He would have been doing all the things, then His realm would have not been expanded. By giving the Free will to the Human beings, God could find many faithful believers who exercised the free will to choose to obey God and to accept Jesus as the Savior, resulting in many gods in harmony with Him ( John 10:35-)

Jesus was perfect even before the Cross but became perfect by obedience ( Hebrews 5:7-9) at the Cross, which means that Jesus became perfect including all the believers in Him. This is what God wants to achieve,and thereby God is expanding ! Oh Great God, Thanks for Thy plan of salvation !

 

[annsni]

If you say that God can do everything like stealing, adultery, being merciless, being lazy, then you are misrepresenting God, and such god is not the True God at all.

So you're saying that because God cannot sin, He's not able to heal?

Now if you check about your statement, you can find God can perfect any ovum if He wills, if He intends to do, but He doesn't do it. Why?

Why doesn't your God make all the ovums perfect while He is Omnipotent and Almighty?

Because He is God and I'm not. God has a plan and I trust Him to do as He wills.

But I know that God COULD have perfected the ovum for Jesus because He is God. Scripture says that He prepared a body for Jesus - and He did that through Mary's egg - that was sinless. I'm not saying Mary was sinless but that God sanctified that which He would use to provide a body for Christ. Remember that God will perfect all of OUR bodies someday too. He just did it this side of the resurrection for Jesus because He had a purpose.

In another thread, someone spoke of the fact that God calls for His dwelling place to be holy so there were VERY specific orders on how to deal with the temple and sanctifying it. In the same way, God Himself sanctified that corruptable seed and made it sanctified to be the body of the Messiah.

God can - and did - sanctify Mary's ovum to create the body for the Son of God. In doing so, He fulfilled prophecy that the Messiah would come from the line of David.

 

[Eliyahu]

Is the belief that DHK and I have a Roman Catholic one? Or was it the well accepted belief of many of Christian theologians of the past?

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Luke 1:35

And the angel answered and said unto her…
The angel gave her an account of the manner in which what he had said should be effected, as well as observed some things for the strengthening of her faith.

The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee.
The words, "upon thee", are left out in the Syriac and Persic versions; but are retained in others, and in all copies: the formation of Christ's human nature, though common to all the three persons, yet is particularly, and most properly ascribed to the Spirit; not to the first person, the Father, lest it should be thought that he is only the Father of him, as man; nor to the second person, the Son, since it is to him that the human nature is personally united; but to the third person, the Spirit, who is the sanctifier; and who separated, and sanctified it, the first moment of its conception, and preserved it from the taint of original sin. His coming upon the virgin must be understood in consistence with his omnipresence, and immensity; and cannot design any local motion, but an effectual operation in forming the human nature of her flesh and substance; and not in the ordinary manner in which he is concerned in the formation of all men, (Job 33:4) but in an extraordinary way, not to be conceived of, and explained. The phrase most plainly answers to (le ab) , in frequent use with the Jews F24, as expressive of coition.

And the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.
By "the power of the Highest" is not meant the Lord Jesus Christ, who is sometimes called the power of God; but rather the Holy Ghost, as before, who is styled the finger of God, and power from on high, (Luke 11:20) (24:49) unless it should be thought that the perfection of divine power common to all the three persons is intended: and so points out the means by which the wondrous thing should be performed, even by the power of God; and which should not only be employed in forming the human nature of Christ, but in protecting the virgin from any suspicion and charge of sin, and defending her innocence and virtue, by moving upon Joseph to take her to wife. In the word, "overshadow", some think there is an allusion to the Spirit of God moving upon the face of the waters, in (Genesis 1:2) when, (tpxrm) , he brooded upon them, as the word may be rendered; and which is the sense of it, according to the Jewish writers


From Matthew Henry's Commentary on Genesis 3:15:

Notice is here given them of three things concerning Christ:—(1.) His incarnation, that he should be the seed of the woman, the seed of that woman; therefore his genealogy (Lu. 3) goes so high as to show him to be the son of Adam, but God does the woman the honour to call him rather her seed, because she it was whom the devil had beguiled, and on whom Adam had laid the blame; herein God magnifies his grace, in that, though the woman was first in the transgression, yet she shall be saved by child-bearing (as some read it), that is, by the promised seed who shall descend from her, 1 Tim. 2:15. He was likewise to be the seed of a woman only, of a virgin, that he might not be tainted with the corruption of our nature; he was sent forth, made of a woman (Gal. 4:4), that this promise might be fulfilled. It is a great encouragement to sinners that their Saviour is the seed of the woman, bone of our bone, Heb. 2:11, 14. Man is therefore sinful and unclean, because he is born of a woman (Job 25:4), and therefore his days are full of trouble, Job 14:1. But the seed of the woman was made sin and a curse for us, so saving us from both.

I understand both were great Christian believers but they could be wrong in some issues.

Birth from a virgin or woman alone doesn't make a sinless person.
They misinterpret the overshadow of the Holy Spirit too.
God is the only Judge and everyone will stand in His presence taking the responsibility for what they taught.

Sperm+ Ovum can cause a sinful nature

But Ovum only can make sinless person?

They didn't mention Word became Flesh. Why?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Scripture says that He prepared a body for Jesus - and He did that through Mary's egg - that was sinless.

I know Hebrews 10:5 states that God prepared Him a body, but where exactly does the Bible say He did that through Mary's egg?

Scripture and verse, please.

God can - and did - sanctify Mary's ovum to create the body for the Son of God.

Scripture?

 

[DHK]

I know Hebrews 10:5 states that God prepared Him a body, but where exactly does the Bible say He did that through Mary's egg?

Scripture and verse, please.

Scripture?

It's been answered many times already. If I do it again will you believe me.
1. God prepared him a body--via Mary's egg.
2. Isa.7:14 A virgin shall conceive... Conception is only through the fertilization of an egg.
3. Mat.1:20 for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost...Conception is only through the fertilization of the egg.
The process is further strengthened by the teaching given in Luke 1:35.

 

[Eliyahu]

So you're saying that because God cannot sin, He's not able to heal?

Ovum and Sperm are the pre-stage of the entire person. If Mary was sick of stomach, it could be healed when she repented. But the entire person of new embryo ( or pre-stage of embryo) need its own repentance and believing in Jesus. Did Mary repented and prayed God to make her ovum perfect?
Her ovum was fertilized with the sperm of Joseph for other children like James, Jude, Jose, and other daughters. Why didn't the Merciful and Lovingkind God heal the rest of the ovums for other children of her?

Because He is God and I'm not. God has a plan and I trust Him to do as He wills.

But I know that God COULD have perfected the ovum for Jesus because He is God. Scripture says that He prepared a body for Jesus - and He did that through Mary's egg - that was sinless. I'm not saying Mary was sinless but that God sanctified that which He would use to provide a body for Christ. Remember that God will perfect all of OUR bodies someday too. He just did it this side of the resurrection for Jesus because He had a purpose.

Perfection needs the repentance and believing the Redemption by Jesus, by the same person, did the Ovum repent? or can anyone pray God to make the ovums be perfect and the sperms be perfect so that the perfect and sinless baby can be produced?

In another thread, someone spoke of the fact that God calls for His dwelling place to be holy so there were VERY specific orders on how to deal with the temple and sanctifying it. In the same way, God Himself sanctified that corruptable seed and made it sanctified to be the body of the Messiah.

God can - and did - sanctify Mary's ovum to create the body for the Son of God. In doing so, He fulfilled prophecy that the Messiah would come from the line of David.

Was Messiah imperfect before His coming? His perfectness and sinlessness didn't depend on Mary!

Why did Mary offer the sacrifice of Dove?
Why doesn't God sanctify all the seeds of the mankind? Then the job would have been easy. All the people would have been sinless.
Why doesn't your God do that even though He is Almighty?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

It's been answered many times already. If I do it again will you believe me.
1. God prepared him a body--via Mary's egg.
2. Isa.7:14 A virgin shall conceive... Conception is only through the fertilization of an egg.
3. Mat.1:20 for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost...Conception is only through the fertilization of the egg.
The process is further strengthened by the teaching given in Luke 1:35.

Those Scriptures you quote say nothing of Mary's egg being used. You are adding to the Scripture what is not there.

The conception was supernatural, not natural.

When you add man's work into that which God did, you are taking away from the miracle and tuning the truth of God into a lie.

 

[DHK]

Those Scriptures you quote say nothing of Mary's egg being used. You are adding to the Scripture what is not there.

The conception was supernatural, not natural.

When you add man's work into that which God did, you are taking away from the miracle and tuning the truth of God into a lie.

Words have meanings.
It is true that the conception is supernatural. I have consistently maintained that positioned and never wavered from it. I am certainly not adding to the Word of God, but rather taking it literally. If anyone is either adding or taking away from the Word, that would be you. You don't want to accept the definition of the word "conception" which of a necessity involves the fertilization of an egg. It can be no other way. Unless you believe that Mary had access to invitro fertilization with sperm being handed to her physically by God the Father and perhaps Joseph having the medical knowledge to put it all together and implant her, then belief in the miraculous nature of the virgin birth of Christ, being conceived by the Holy Spirit, is the only option open. I believe the latter is easier to believe then the former, and that the former would be an even greater miracle.

 

[Eliyahu]

Is the egg the Word?

Or Is the Word inserted into the Egg?

Is that what " Word became flesh" mean?

change your bible if you don't believe " Word became Flesh"

Word was penetrated into the flesh or

Word entered the flesh.

or Flesh became Flesh.

 

[Linda64]

Do you really believe that God needed any human intervention (using Mary's egg) to create "a body" for Jesus Christ? Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3). In Hebrews 2:14:

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Jesus was not a "partaker of flesh and blood" as we are, but "took part of the same"...which only can mean that He was NOT the BIOLOGICAL son of Mary. The incarnation of the Eternal Son of God was totally and completely 100% of God...with no human intervention.

 

[DHK]

Ovum and Sperm are the pre-stage of the entire person. If Mary was sick of stomach, it could be healed when she repented. But the entire person of new embryo ( or pre-stage of embryo) need its own repentance and believing in Jesus. Did Mary repented and prayed God to make her ovum perfect?
Her ovum was fertilized with the sperm of Joseph for other children like James, Jude, Jose, and other daughters. Why didn't the Merciful and Lovingkind God heal the rest of the ovums for other children of her?

Your entire post is ludicrous. The birth of Christ is not dependent on Mary's physical condition. There were no ovums that needed healing. Mary didn't have to pray to God for repentance in this manner. She submitted to the Lord's will. She was already a believer in Christ, the Messiah. Her words: "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord." She was ready to do the will of God.

Perfection needs the repentance and believing the Redemption by Jesus, by the same person, did the Ovum repent? or can anyone pray God to make the ovums be perfect and the sperms be perfect so that the perfect and sinless baby can be produced?

The word perfection in the Bible means "completion" or even "maturity." That which was in the womb of Mary was brought to maturity. Jesus was totally or completely man in every way. His body was complete. His humanity was complete. The form of his body never remained "complete" There were chunks of flesh that were ripped out of him when he was scourged. In fact he was beaten so badly the Bible says that he was unrecognizable. Don't concentrate so much on the flesh.

Was Messiah imperfect before His coming? His perfectness and sinlessness didn't depend on Mary!

Do you confuse his humanity with his deity. He is and always was perfect and sinless in his deity. There is nothing that says that his body was always perfect. If it was always perfect it would have never gone to the cross; it would never have suffered pain, thirsted, hungered, etc.
Throughout history there no doubt were men that had stronger bodies than Christ, maybe more handsome than Christ, etc. The perfection isn't in the flesh. So why the emphasis on Mary who gave him a body of flesh. You don't make sense.

Why did Mary offer the sacrifice of Dove?

Mary was a sinner, offering a sin offering.

Why doesn't God sanctify all the seeds of the mankind? Then the job would have been easy. All the people would have been sinless.

He died that all men could be saved.

Why doesn't your God do that even though He is Almighty?

He did die for the sins of all mankind.

 

[Eliyahu]

Your entire post is ludicrous.

From the comedian's point of view who claims the sin is not inherited thru women.

The birth of Christ is not dependent on Mary's physical condition. There were no ovums that needed healing. What kind of scientism have you been choking on? Mary didn't have to pray to God for repentance in this manner. She submitted to the Lord's will. She was already a believer in Christ, the Messiah. Her words: "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord." She was ready to do the will of God.

Sin reigned over all the people, all the body, and the result was the death.
All the ovums and sperms carried the sin nature since the Fall.
Otherwise, the people would have lived eternally, without need of Christ coming.

Do you confuse his humanity with his deity. He is and always was perfect and sinless in his deity. There is nothing that says that his body was always perfect. If it was always perfect it would have never gone to the cross; it would never have suffered pain, thirsted, hungered, etc.
Throughout history there no doubt were men that had stronger bodies than Christ, maybe more handsome than Christ, etc. The perfection isn't in the flesh. So why the emphasis on Mary who gave him a body of flesh. You don't make sense.

You are separating Humanity and Divinity all the time while you claim He was God and Man at the same time. Did Mary have the perfect mind and thinking all the time? Why did she lose her own son? Why couldn't she understand what Jesus said?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The invention of Mary's egg being in Scripture is just as ludicrous as this invention

 

[annsni]

The invention of Mary's egg being in Scripture is just as ludicrous as this invention

Yet it's a traditional Christian belief until some recently came up with another theory.