Was Mary a Biological Mother or a Surrogate Mother for Jesus?

[DHK]

Adam refers to both man and woman, DHK. Or do you not believe Genesis 5:2?

Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Both were called Adam because they were one flesh.

By one man's disobedience. Even disobeyed first. She was the Adam spoken of in Romans 5.

We are discussing the verses between 12 and 19.
Take a look here:

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
--From Adam (not Eve) to Moses (not Zipporah)...
--After the similitude of Adam (not Eve)
who is the figure of him (Christ) who is to come.

The comparisons are all of people, individuals, not mankind or representatives thereof.

 

[Amy.G]

This is nuts. No one denies that Mary was a virgin! A virgin, the last time I checked was a woman who had never had sexual intercourse.
Mary was such a woman, but she had a baby inside of her. That makes her a woman who had never had sexual relations (a virgin) giving birth, does it not? That makes it a miracle!

Here is a definition of "conceive"
From dictionary.com
verb (used with object) 1. to form (a notion, opinion, purpose, etc.): He conceived the project while he was on vacation.
2. to form a notion or idea of; imagine.
3. to hold as an opinion; think; believe: I can't conceive that it would be of any use.
4. to experience or form (a feeling): to conceive a great love for music.
5. to express, as in words.
6. to become pregnant with.
7. to beget.
8. to begin, originate, or found (something) in a particular way (usually used in the passive): a new nation conceived in liberty.
9. Archaic. to understand; comprehend.
–verb (used without object) 10. to form an idea; think (usually fol. by of).
11. to become pregnant.

A woman can be pregnant without contributing an egg. It's called surrogacy.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Thank you Amy.

 

[DHK]

You beat me to it. I don't see how believing that God made a body for Christ without Mary's egg is denying she was a virgin.

Mary was indeed a virgin. But what did the virgin birth entail. I believe it is a denial of the virgin birth to come out and say: oh I think that she was impregnated when the child was already two months along (he did say that in another thread). We are now down to at least an embyo. But this spaceship idea of God sending an embryo, a fetus, or whatever to the womb of Mary is ludicrous when the Bible plainly says that Mary conceived. Why contradict what the Bible says and make up fanciful stories contradicting the plain facts of the Bible. Shall we call it the great cover-up. These things were never heard of until just recently. This was never the position of historic orthodox Christianity.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amy, please search these threads and tell me if I ever said Jesus was delivered by a spaceship?

I think you will find the spaceship theory is not my idea at all.

 

[DHK]

This is nuts. No one denies that Mary was a virgin! A virgin, the last time I checked was a woman who had never had sexual intercourse.
Mary was such a woman, but she had a baby inside of her. That makes her a woman who had never had sexual relations (a virgin) giving birth, does it not? That makes it a miracle!

Here is a definition of "conceive"
From dictionary.com
verb (used with object) 1. to form (a notion, opinion, purpose, etc.): He conceived the project while he was on vacation.
2. to form a notion or idea of; imagine.
3. to hold as an opinion; think; believe: I can't conceive that it would be of any use.
4. to experience or form (a feeling): to conceive a great love for music.
5. to express, as in words.
6. to become pregnant with.
7. to beget.
8. to begin, originate, or found (something) in a particular way (usually used in the passive): a new nation conceived in liberty.
9. Archaic. to understand; comprehend.
–verb (used without object) 10. to form an idea; think (usually fol. by of).
11. to become pregnant.

A woman can be pregnant without contributing an egg. It's called surrogacy.

And who, in the first century, had the technology available to them, to implant others with already fertilized egges in order to make them surrogate mothers? No one. That, of course, is recent technology that didn't exist in that century and thus the definition is ruled out.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

And who, in the first century, had the technology available to them, to implant others with already fertilized egges in order to make them surrogate mothers? No one. That, of course, is recent technology that didn't exist in that century and thus the definition is ruled out.

The Holy Ghost had that technology, now didn't He? The Word of God states that which is in her is "of the Holy Ghost".

The Holy Ghost implanted that flesh in Mary.

 

[DHK]

The Holy Ghost had that technology, now didn't He? The Word of God states that which is in her is "of the Holy Ghost".

The Holy Ghost implanted that flesh in Mary.

No the Bible says more than once that Mary conceived. It nowhere says that Mary was a surrogate in that sense of the Word. The totality of Scripture must harmonize and it doesn't with that definition.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

No, it is not a denial of the virgin birth. When I said it was not 'of Mary and the Holy Ghost.' I am showing what the Bible said. 'is of the Holy Ghost.' Where do you see Mary in those 5 words?

What I said was to show the Bible did not say Mary contributed her egg and the Holy Ghost did the rest.

The Holy Ghost did it all. He placed that flesh in Mary's womb.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

No the Bible says more than once that Mary conceived. It nowhere says that Mary was a surrogate in that sense of the Word. The totality of Scripture must harmonize and it doesn't with that definition.

in your view it doesn't.

 

[Amy.G]

Mary was indeed a virgin. But what did the virgin birth entail. I believe it is a denial of the virgin birth to come out and say: oh I think that she was impregnated when the child was already two months along (he did say that in another thread). We are now down to at least an embyo. But this spaceship idea of God sending an embryo, a fetus, or whatever to the womb of Mary is ludicrous when the Bible plainly says that Mary conceived. Why contradict what the Bible says and make up fanciful stories contradicting the plain facts of the Bible. Shall we call it the great cover-up. These things were never heard of until just recently. This was never the position of historic orthodox Christianity.

I don't see any fanciful stories, but you still have to deal with the fact that Mary was a sinner with a sin nature. I do not agree with your interpretation that only the male passes along the sin nature. The mother passes all kinds of traits on to her children, physical features, her nature, her bad temper, her A or B personality, ect. ect. So how is it the sin nature is the only thing she doesn't pass along?

As has been show previously:
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Amy.G]

And who, in the first century, had the technology available to them, to implant others with already fertilized egges in order to make them surrogate mothers? No one. That, of course, is recent technology that didn't exist in that century and thus the definition is ruled out.

Only God. That's why it's a miracle!

Why couldn't God have formed the body of Christ from the dust, just as He did Adam?

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by DHK
No the Bible says more than once that Mary conceived. It nowhere says that Mary was a surrogate in that sense of the Word. The totality of Scripture must harmonize and it doesn't with that definition.

I have shown that "conceive" means to be pregnant.

Mary conceived (was made pregnant) by the Holy Ghost.

She did not have to contribute her egg to conceive (be pregnant).

 

[Amy.G]

I must say goodnight to all. It's waayyyy past my bedtime.

God bless!

:sleep:

 

[Matt Black]

It seems pretty simple to me: Isaiah prophesied that a virgin would conceive. No woman can conceive other than through her own ovum being fertilised. It's pretty ludicrous to suggest that because 'conception' can = 'become pregnant' that that somehow allows for surrogacy in the Isaian prophecy. In surrogacy (as I understand the way some here are defining it), someone else conceives and the zygote or embryo is then implanted in another woman's womb. In no way can that 'carrying' woman be said to have 'conceived'. Scripture doesn't say that that happened: Isaiah 7:14 says "a virgin shall conceive", not "an embryo shall be miraculously conceived elsewhere and subsequently implanted into a virgin's womb".

Please rely on what Scripture actually says rather than adding to it to suit your theological agenda, people.

 

[Eliyahu]

Original quote deleted

I kindly advise you to quit the libel against the oponents of the debate like that. The question about whether someone is cult or not, about whether someone is saved or not should be decided by checking the fundamental points like Salvation by works or by grace, or Deity of Jesus, etc.

You are in the habit of quickly appealing to Cult, Cult, Cult, JW, Heresy, etc, abusing the authority of the Mod. That's not right.

[advice taken; I have edited my posts]

 

[Eliyahu]

It seems pretty simple to me: Isaiah prophesied that a virgin would conceive. No woman can conceive other than through her own ovum being fertilised. It's pretty ludicrous to suggest that because 'conception' can = 'become pregnant' that that somehow allows for surrogacy in the Isaian prophecy. In surrogacy (as I understand the way some here are defining it), someone else conceives and the zygote or embryo is then implanted in another woman's womb. In no way can that 'carrying' woman be said to have 'conceived'. Scripture doesn't say that that happened: Isaiah 7:14 says "a virgin shall conceive", not "an embryo shall be miraculously conceived elsewhere and subsequently implanted into a virgin's womb".

Please rely on what Scripture actually says rather than adding to it to suit your theological agenda, people.

How could you explain the Word became Flesh?

 

[Palatka51]

Genesis 3:14&15

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This settles this thread for me. Her seed. As in belonging to Mary not as an implantation from an outside source or belonging to someone else.
It is clear in other Bible verses that Adam is the source for the sin nature not the woman.

I am by no means a geneticist but as far as I understand it the woman contributes only the x chromosome for her ovum (woman's seed). The ovum if not fertilized with the sperm (man's seed), the y chromosome, the ovum will be cast out as dead. The ovum is therefore dead without life from the the seed of man.
(The x/y thing might be visa/versa for all I know, but you should get the premise of my point.)
Now with that as a biological/genetic view, let's look at it in this light. God has taken that which in all respects is doomed to die and made it life (Mary's ovum) without the work of man. Again this is indirectly to what Christ did on the cross. God accepts the life of His Son just as Jesus had said;

John 10:17&18
17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

God has provided the life for Mary's ovum that would, by nature, be dead.
God has again provided that life that by nature was dead, to the product of Mary's ovum, as He laid in the tomb. :godisgood:

With this accomplishment of God Himself, we who are dead in trespasses and sin are now brought to life through the death, burial and resurrection of His Holy Son.

Hebrews 5:5-9
5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Verse 8 indicates that Jesus learned obedience by experience. Wouldn't that verily be a human trait? As in having to learn? And yet aren't humans reluctant to teaching? Yet Christ was perfect in that He did not have the y chromosome of man's rebellion and was a willing subject to the Father's will.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

So lets talk about this notion of "sinful flesh" or as it was much later called, "original sin."

Could it be that Jesus did in fact have the same DNA as the rest of us, and yet despite this remained sinless?

To put the question differently, what is it that damns someone, sin nature or sin? "All have sinned" (Rom 3.23), NOT "all have sin natures." Thus, if Jesus had the same sort of humanity that all of us have (that was begun when God invented Adam's DNA), that doesn't make his sacrifice on the cross in anyway void. Had Jesus sinned, then his sacrifice would have been tainted; seeing that he did not sin means that his sacrifice was perfect.

Or to put it still another way, falling short of God's glory has nothing to do with what we inherited from our parents. It has everything to do with the fact that we each have given into temptation. Jesus did not...but Jesus' sinlessness would mean nothing to any of us if he was not in fact human like all of us.

Good post,

 

[Doubting Thomas]

As according to scripture. Everyone born from a human egg is born with the sin nature. Unless you are saying babies do have the sin nature.

Show me that verse again, the one that allegedly states that "everyone born from a human egg is born with 'the sin nature'". Thanks.